Looking Back to Look Forward in Child Welfare

Season 7Episode 2January 30, 2025

Dr. Meg Sullivan, former Acting Assistant Secretary for the Administration of Children and Families joined One in Ten to discuss the efforts and policies of the Biden administration in child welfare. The discussion explores challenges like preventing child abuse, the effectiveness of foster care placements, and the focus on the work being done to address human trafficking, and more.

In this episode of One in Ten, host Teresa Huizar speaks with Dr. Meg Sullivan, former Acting Assistant Secretary for the Administration of Children and Families, about the efforts and policies of the Biden administration in child welfare. The discussion explores challenges like preventing child abuse, the effectiveness of foster care placements, and strategies for addressing family neglect without primarily associating it with poverty. Dr. Sullivan highlights significant achievements, ongoing challenges, and promising practices like the Family First Prevention Act, which emphasizes preventative measures to keep families together. The conversation also touches on innovative programs that provide direct financial assistance to families and youth at risk of homelessness. Additionally, there is a focus on the work being done to address human trafficking, emphasizing the need for continuous investment and collaboration to tackle these critical issues.

Time Stamps:

00:00 Introduction to Today’s Episode

01:21 Meet Dr. Meg Sullivan

01:25 Dr. Sullivan’s Career Journey

03:38 Challenges in Child Welfare

05:49 Policy Changes and Their Impact

06:46 Family First Prevention Act

08:31 Addressing Neglect and Poverty

12:52 Promising Practices and Innovations

22:59 Human Trafficking Prevention

27:45 Unfinished Business and Future Hopes

35:18 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Links:

Dr. Meg Sullivan, MD, MPH, is a former Acting Assistant Secretary for the Administration of Children and Families

Family First Prevention Services Act

Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) Work Requirements

Teresa: Hi, I’m Teresa Huizar, your host of One in Ten. In today’s episode, Looking Back to Look Forward in Child Welfare, I speak with Dr. Meg Sullivan, former Acting Assistant Secretary for the Administration of Children and Families. Now, every administration starts with high hopes of all that will be accomplished for America’s children and families.

And, while every administration differs in its priorities and approaches, all are challenged with some key questions.  How do we better prevent child abuse and neglect in the first place?  How do we avoid foster care placements and strengthen families wherever we can?  How do we address the most critical challenges faced by America’s families?

In an earlier episode, Are We Solving the Wrong Problems in Child Welfare, you heard the first Trump administration’s answers to those questions. Now, in this episode, the Biden administration looks back on their own work and answers in their own way, where they believed federal investment can make the most difference.

I know you’ll be as interested in this policy conversation as I was. Please take a listen.

Hi, Dr. Sullivan. Welcome to One in Ten.

 

Dr. Sullivan: Thank you so much for having me.

 

Teresa: I’m going to start this conversation where I do every single one of them, which is to say really You’ve had a very interesting biography in terms of starting your career first as a teacher, and then as a pediatrician, and then as a public health official, and then, you know, now at this national level.

And I’m just wondering what brought you to this intersection between public health and child welfare, where you are now?

 

Dr. Sullivan: Yeah, you know, I think it’s a question that I get asked about and have been thinking about and, you know, I will say I think when I applied to medical school, did not necessarily see myself right a number of years later, you know, leading the administration for children and families, but in some ways it makes a lot of sense.

So, yeah, started off in education, went to medical school, spent and did pediatric residency and then spent time doing clinical work and then kind of shift to public health work and then federal work, which started off actually the administration for strategic preparedness and response. Served as a counselor to the HHS secretary and now here and I think just the center of every, all of the work that I have done is really been children and families, right?

And obviously it’s a pediatrician, you know, children and families are my patients, but through every part of my career, when you think about what ACF programs do, they intersect with so much of what I’ve done, right? And I have seen firsthand a. What not having access to affordable child care can mean for a family or having to worry about an energy bill.

I am a mandated reporter and so I’ve had to make very difficult decisions about whether or not to make a report related to the child welfare system. I have been caring for families of very new foster parents and known some of those challenges. And so, you know, I think that when I was offered the opportunity first to serve as a counselor to the Secretary for Administration for Children and Families, you know, my first thought was, wait, I’m a pediatrician.

This is more on the human services side, but at the same time, I think it makes so much sense. And if you think about the intersection between health and well-being and the social determinants of health, I mean, this is really what ACF works to address. And it truly has been the honor of my lifetime to be able to serve in this role.

 

Teresa: You’ve had an interesting bird’s eye view of the challenges that children and families face. And of course, you saw those challenges as a pediatrician as well. Can you talk a little bit about sort of what you see at this time in terms of unique challenges or things that are really top of mind where you go?

This is really something that from a federal policymaking level, yes, we may have been working on it, but this is going to be an ongoing challenge we’re going to need to address into the future.

 

Dr. Sullivan: You know, so again, I’ve been coming off, right, four years of this administration, and we look at the number of things that this agency has accomplished.

And certainly, right, that is led by, you know, 2, 000 staff and so much work that has gone into it. I think it is hard not to just be incredibly proud. But yet, as you said, there’s still so much work to do. And I think the challenges kind of fit in a few different buckets. The first is, right, as we look at ACF’s mission to promote the economic and, you know, social well being of children and families.

Part of that comes with the amount of money that we are about to put out. And so I think, right, always. Trying to think about kind of the amount of funding that ACF receives and then how we can effectively get it out and right and what that looks like. And I know that there’s a lot of conversations that are happening right there.

I think 2nd is really and what we hear directly from, whether it’s states or our local partners, or even those individuals that we work so hard to engage with lived experiences. It’s really around flexibilities with the dollars. And so balancing, making sure that we are effective stewards. Right, of government resources and having accountability and tracking, but at the same time, not putting so many constraints on how dollars can be used that they don’t become effective on a grant.

I think that’s the third thing that I have really learned from serving in this role and a high leadership role is we can make very, very, very big policy changes that really, you know, are major changes, I guess, and approaches to how things can be used. But if states or, again, local partners or families aren’t seeing the impact.

Then it really isn’t doing anything at all. And that has been something that we have really struggled with. And I think what is front and center of every single decision that we make is thinking about it from that perspective of an individual with lived experience or a local community organization that’s trying to implement and making sure that impact. And again, I think we’ve done a lot to be proud of, but there still is a lot more to do.

 

Teresa: Could you give me an example of what you’re describing where, you know, there was a policy change and it was, you know, one that you were excited about and the department was excited about. And then at the end of the day, you were left feeling like it just didn’t quite yet, because sometimes these big policy changes bear fruit far down the road.

So, you know, it’s not to say that it won’t at some point, but you just felt like I was expecting states to be more excited about this or. I was expecting communities to be more excited about this. And you’re like, you know, a little bit, frustrated might be too strong a word, but you just are feeling like it’s a little bit of undone work. The fact that it didn’t quite generate what you had hoped.

 

Dr. Sullivan: Yeah, that is, that’s an interesting question. I think we, and I’m going to try and think of an example. You know, I think we have been thinking a lot about work where I wouldn’t necessarily say states are not excited, but definitely it has not achieved its full potential yet.

You know, I think a good example that comes to mind is the Family First Prevention Act, you know, which was a bipartisan act passed, you know, more than five years ago and really creates, right, just an incredible amount of resources to really focus on prevention. And it has, you know, when we started this administration, I think there was about nine states that had prevention plans.

We are now up to about 48 jurisdictions. And there, you know, a lot of staff where we can talk about how much we have accomplished, but we still have meetings on a regular basis saying there, there’s more that can be done. And how can we, again, work effectively with states. And we think about, this is where we have conversations with them, the balance between making sure that they have the flexibility to use the dollars and how it’ll work most in their state.

But yet we are still getting the data, the reporting to see how it’s impactful. And again, I think you’ve made a lot of progress, but still have a lot of work to do. And I’m really looking forward to seeing how that work continues to make sure that it achieves its full potential.

 

Teresa: Just so that we level set for listeners who may not be as familiar with the act, can you just talk a little bit for a moment and kind of level set for folks?

When we’re talking about prevention, in this case, we’re really trying to prevent children from entering foster care, correct? Talk a little bit about, you know, just sort of frame out – What the hopes of the work of the last four years has been as you’ve been working with states to build out these plans and to provide flexibility where you can, what is it that you’re hoping to see, you know, sort of bear fruit into the future?

 

Dr. Sullivan: Yeah, so, you know, I think as you said, right, our, again, at ACF, our mission is to promote the economic and social well being of children and families. And one of those kind of central missions is really by supporting families and keeping them together and making sure, right, that they have the support system.

that they need to be able to to thrive. And, you know, if you look at ACF recently released its most recent child maltreatment report, and you look at what kind of the most common reason and I get the statistic is around 64 percent released of reports that were made to the child welfare system involves some level of neglect, which often, right, can mean that families don’t have the resources necessarily that they need to be able to provide all of the support.

And what we have really been trying to message is this idea, right, that poverty does not equal neglect. Which means that a family does not, that does not have resources. One of the most effective ways to really support that family is not a referral to the child welfare system, right, and an entry into the foster care system, but really this is about prevention and about providing concrete supports, whether it is housing supports, whether it is financial assistance or, you know, a diaper bank that ACF started.

These are the ways to be able to say to a family, we’re going to support you with these resources and address any other issues that may be there. So that you can stay together as a family and not result in kind of unnecessary involvement in the child welfare system. This is what we have been laser focused on.

And again, the Family First Prevention Act, I think, back to your question, helps state provide those resources. But, you know, and I think that is, it is a concept that it’s almost right and comfortable to argue with, but it also is very challenging, I think, to your question, to implement incredibly effectively and to be able to make sure You know, first, as I talked about at the beginning, as a pediatrician, you know, when mandated reporters are kind of making decisions about whether or not to report, to be able to set up those warm hotlines so that instead of reporting, they can call and say, hey, this family needs some support and state setting up systems to be able to do that.

To making sure that community agencies are set up again, using those prevention dollars to be able to do that. And I think states are really developing some innovative approaches, but learning from those experiences. And that’s what ACF is here to do is to support them and try and strengthen that as we go.

 

Teresa: I mean, I’ve been delighted to see the focus on addressing neglect. You know, when you look at child maltreatment numbers overall over the last 40 years, you know, we’ve had lots of great progress on physical abuse and sexual abuse. And yet, the numbers have been relatively stable around neglect and really, very little impact.

And there are lots of reasons for that. We’ve had lots of researchers on the show talking about that over the last few years. But I think that one of the things that I’m wondering, as you know, you’ve been looking at the state plans that have been coming forward and seeing an exciting innovation around that is the degree to which folks are deciding to adjust some of their definitions of neglect.

I mean, many of these were written 40 or 50 years ago. Almost all of them talk about lack of material resources. And so if definitionally, you’re defining neglect as essentially poverty, then it’s unsurprising that you have such a large, you know, percentage of cases that come into child welfare that are neglect cases.

So, what are you seeing in that way? Are folks like even talking about addressing some of these really state public policy decisions?

 

Dr. Sullivan: I, you know, I think first, I think it’s such a great question, and second, the answer is absolutely yes. This is being talked about and which I think is so important. You know, I know that the White House held a child welfare convening earlier this summer that obviously a CF participated in, but so states and local partners, and this was one of the central themes that was talked about is again, this idea that poverty does not equal neglect.

And let’s look at what the definitions are, but then again, not just the definition right in the words on the page, but how you operationalize that. And so it is, you know, making sure that there are a. kind of that training and supports in place for those that may be having to make that decision or trying to make that distinction about whether or not it truly is intentional neglect and, you know, warrants further involvement by the child welfare system versus a family in need of supports, and then actually having those supports on the ground. But several states have done very innovative and kind of forward leaning changes. And, you know, I know a lot of states are to follow, but this is not only part of the conversation now, I think it absolutely needs to continue because as you’re saying, you know, I think we have made so much progress in the research in, again, what we’re seeing and what states are doing, but we haven’t yet seen that decrease in numbers that we need to see. And so, we just can’t stop the work.

 

Teresa: You know, I want to dig into some of these promising practices in a moment, but one of the things I was thinking about as you were talking, and I’m sure, you know, you had your own experiences as a pediatrician seeing families come into your office, but the thing that I think challenges mandated reporters is there’s often, you can see that there’s material lack of need, but unless you’re a caseworker or a social worker, you have no idea where to even begin.

So, you might know that the family needs food, shelter, clothing, whatever, utilities paid, but at the same time, it’s expecting a little much for every teacher, every caseworker, you know, every, every person who could be a mandated reporter to suddenly be an expert on the entire service array in a community, and so, can you just talk to me a little bit about what you’re seeing, you know, you referenced, warm lines, and so to talk a little bit about, for folks who might not know what that is, or other practices that you’re seeing that  Sort of provide some support so that if you are a doctor, a teacher, a law enforcement officer, a CAC worker, another child abuse professional, and what you’re seeing is a material lack of need, not with intentional withholding of it, you know, where to turn to besides calling CPS.

 

Dr. Sullivan: Yeah, I, again, such an important question, you know, and I think you referenced, yeah, my, you know, first job out of college was as a teacher, um, in the Bronx and, you know, I was 21 years old and, you know, I think to your point was, you know, dealing with a lot of kind of questions and issues that I did not have the training or background or expertise to be making, you know, major decisions as you’ve talked about.

But, and this is where though, I think to your point, A, Training becomes so important, but B, not putting the onus, all of the onus, right, on the one individual who, you know, has so much on their plate. But this is where this idea of still being able to make a call to provide resources, but the call is not to say, right, There is neglect that is happening and, you know, you need to investigate for potential removal of the child from the household.

But to call and say, you know, here’s the situation with the family, are there resources that can help? And, you know, the idea of that warm line is for somebody, you know, such as, you know, a brand new teacher or law enforcement officer who maybe only has a glimpse and can’t do that and doesn’t know that full assessment to be able to hand it over to someone who can.

And I think, right, that is the place where we have, again, made some progress, but still have a lot more work to do.

 

Teresa: Have you seen some particular promising practices that you’d like to lift up? You know, often we’re talking about sort of the negative examples of something, you know, here’s what’s going wrong, but it’s also nice to sometimes be able to call out a particular, you know, strategy or particular state where you’re going, you know what, we’re really seeing some good traction with this and, you know, we should continue to monitor it and see whether, you know, that’s an idea that should spread.

 

Dr. Sullivan: Yeah, you know, I think and maybe just shifting topics a little bit because I think we have seen some examples of these warm lines. But I think another thing that is, um, I’m really focusing on is being able to provide. We’ve talked a lot about this idea of concrete supports, which I know is a term that might not be familiar for.

But again, it is kind of that direct assistance, again, housing assistance, childcare assistance, financial assistance, cash assistance. And you know, I know that there are now, um, programs that exist that really look to leverage TANF, which is the Temporary Assistance for Needy Family, another program that ACF administers and really, you know, try to work to support families that are, you know, with a focus on families that are at or below the 200% federal poverty line to be able to avoid getting to a moment of crisis and so, you know, program that recognizes that when a new, for example, when a child is about to be born into a family, but that can sometimes be a time of need. And so, people to provide direct financial assistance during that time again to prevent severe economic crises or strain on the family that they may put them at higher risk.

These are programs that we are seeing kind of take hold. ACF frequently released a Dear Colleague letter that really kind of reiterates the fact that TANF dollars can be used to provide, right, this be direct, um, assistance to families to be able to prevent that. And that’s something that we would, um, really encourage more states to do.

 

Teresa: We’ve seen some interesting experiments with that, I would say. In fact, right here in the District of Columbia, I don’t know whether they’re using TANF dollars or not, but this idea of direct assistance, they are piloting that. Where they’re simply making, you know, these micro payments to families to see to what extent that impacts, you know, neglect within those families where there does seem to be a lack of material need.

And I’m excited to see the results of that when it’s ready, because I think that, you know, we can’t assume that that parents are going to do the wrong thing when they’re given the opportunity to do the right thing, and I think often parents are the most concerned about their children being cold in house with no utilities or not having adequate, you know, food or, you know, inadequate shelter, whatever the situation might be.

And I think that to the extent that the child welfare system can, you know be, I don’t know if reduced is the right word, but adjusted so that it has the time and bandwidth to focus on the most serious cases. I mean, that can only help those children who are part of the most serious cases and also keep families from experiencing, I mean, the trauma of intervention because we can’t assume that these investigations don’t come with their own, you know, stressors as well.

 

Dr. Sullivan: Yeah, and if I, again, shifting gears a little bit just to provide one more example, you know, ACF works with runaway and homeless youth, um, which unfortunately, right, is a population that right now just it’s too large of a number, but then we have been able to do a demonstration project that again pilots, right, direct cash assistance to youth that are at risk of experiencing homelessness.

And I’ve had the opportunity to do site visits and talk directly with youth who have been recipients of that, right, and they have really used that money to be able to pay rent so their family is not evicted, you know, and, you know, and then they’re able to finish school and go into college or to use it in ways that is, as you said, Really stabilizes and keeps them, you know, on a path that is just about right supporting their well being.

And I think it’s really incredible what this demonstration project is being able to show, but at the same time, it’s a demonstration project, right? And it is limited and whether or not it continues and, you know, how we could make it bigger. These are the things, though, that I think in my role kind of leading ACF has been just so eye opening to really see that direct impact on the ground, you know, and you started off asking the question about what are the big challenges?

And, you know, it is hard to have some of these conversations that we have here in Washington about how do we find that exact balance, right, about the amount of money? The flexibilities, where it goes, how we monitor, how we use it. But then, to see these stories of how these families, it really does save their lives.

And it is hard not to advocate for more resources to be able to do more of this. And in the end, you know, I think there is obviously the social argument and, you know, the moral argument around this is what every family needs and deserves. But there’s also the economic argument about prevention and this idea, right, if we are preventing an entry into the child welfare system, which, you know, is also economically costly. If we are preventing a family from being evicted and having to utilize resources, this, right, there’s an economic advantage in addition to, right, it’s just the right thing to do. And I think that is something, you know, ACF really has prided itself in lifting up kind of data and research, really being able to try and get that out there.

It’s not always straightforward, and I think there’s still more need for research in this area, but there’s a lot out there right now, and I think some of these best practices we’re talking about are just going to support even further that research.

 

Teresa: I’m curious about what you think the reason is for kind of a delay and uptake of this idea overall. I’m not talking specifically about this administration or anything else. I’m really talking about sort of culturally among Americans. There are lots of folks that it gives hives to the idea of making direct cash assistance payments, you know, and there’s not necessarily an underlying assumption that families will do the right thing when given these. And so, what do you think that is about?

 

Dr. Sullivan: It’s a good question. And, you know, I think it’s something that I have struggled with as well. You know, I think whether it is hearing, right, a story, one story, whether or not it’s true, and that’s, you know, the thing that sticks in your mind, whether it is, I think, not fully understanding.

Exactly how these programs work and are set up and, you know, and all of the work and wraparound supports and monitoring that goes into place that it may be, you know, I also think anytime there is, you know, this is something I wouldn’t say it’s new. I mean, I think this is an idea that we’ve been talking about for decades and probably even longer, but it’s still because it is not, it is still not You know, fully mainstream or something that has been kind of fully accepted it, you know, there’s always questions that come with it.

But I think maybe 1 of the reasons I’m struggling a little bit to answer your question is because I’m asking myself the same thing. Right? And obviously, this is something that I, you know, under the staff at ACF have done a really wonderful job about. Trying to prioritize and lift up and to say, we need to do more of this, right?

Which is, again, I mentioned this Dear Colleague letter that we just released. And, you know, some of the resources that we’re trying to say is no, this can be written statutorily. This is allowed, you know, there are ways to do it. There’s best practices and how can we make sure this is more of the mainstream. So that may be. Next time you don’t have to ask me that same question.

 

Teresa: Yeah, you know, I do think that we’re, um, privileged in the fact that we have access to lots of research and have been exposed to it over a period of time. So, to us, this may seem a little more common sense that for someone who hasn’t been exposed to any of it, has no idea, and just It just seems like a little far fetched to be opening the wallet quite in that way.

So, we’ll hope that as we continue both in whatever your future professional career is and certainly here on the podcast, we’ll continue to talk about these things as I think that research ultimately tells the tale about the effectiveness of things and I’m excited about that. I do want to kind of pivot a little bit, because I know another area in which you’ve worked a lot has been around human trafficking. And for the folks who are listeners at One in Ten, they’re all child abuse professionals. And so, their piece of that has always been child sex trafficking, sometimes child labor trafficking.

That’s a real part of that. And you know, again, speaking of things that are not brand new, the issues around human trafficking have been around, you know, probably since time immemorial, but thankfully, I will say that the federal government over the last, I don’t know, 10 years, 15 years, really started having more of a very intentional focus, putting out solicitations around this funding, a variety of initiatives. And, all of that has been really, I think, useful work, but I’m, I’m interested in a few things. For one thing, I’m curious about whether you believe that the investments that have been made to date, as helpful as they have been, have really been at the scale that’s needed or warranted with this population and, you know, scaled to the size of the problem or not.

 

Dr. Sullivan: Yeah, I mean, I think, as you know, right, January is Human Trafficking Prevention Month, and so this is something that obviously we are having lots of conversations about right now, but throughout the entire year, and, you know, I think you referenced that this has been a major focus. ACF has the Office of Trafficking in Persons that is really, right, kind of a leader in working to prevent any form of human trafficking and really getting the message out that every person in this country deserves to live safely and free from exploitation.

I think, as you referenced, right, that there has been a lot of progress, whether it is through the amount of trainings that have occurred, whether it is through the resources and, you know, letters that have been issued, a lot of changes in policy, changes in definitions of what trafficking is, right, to really make it broader.

But, you know, I always, unfortunately, I think this is true of a lot of answers to, is it enough, is, is no, right? We still have it, not until, you know, we have no person that is being trafficked and we know we certainly aren’t there yet. And so, again, I think, you know, this month there’s a particular focus on human trafficking prevention, but this needs to continue to be a top priority, you know, and I know under this administration we have released the Human Trafficking Prevention Framework and really work to set to look at from a variety of different lenses, how can we make sure that this is not only on everyone’s radar, but resources are invested.

And this is again, something that, that everybody says we need to not stop until we have, have a limited human tribe.

 

Teresa: Knowing that, you know, there are never enough resources to really meet the full needs of probably any problem.  What leaves you feeling hopeful? About this topic. What are you sort of saying to yourself? This is something where, okay, we didn’t do everything I might have liked or we weren’t didn’t have the resources to do maybe things quite at the scale I would have liked. But here’s some things I’m feeling really proud of. Here’s some things that I think are maybe exciting examples of things that can carry on.

 

Dr. Sullivan: You know, I think I would point to a few things. You know, I think the first thing is I mentioned ACF has the Office of Trafficking in Persons, which again is, I cannot say enough about what that office has done, but one of the things that I have seen firsthand is that they act with, you know, they in their hands act with every single other ACF program, HHS agency across the government and across the community.

To really address this as a whole of society approach. I mentioned the Human Trafficking Prevention Framework, right? That is obviously not Office of Trafficking in Persons or ACF specific, right? That extends to everywhere. I actually had the opportunity to present just earlier this week at the National Advisory Committee on the Prevention of Human Trafficking, which was just relaunched, and to see, right, the number of experts that engaged.

So, I think first it is, you know, again, the number of sectors and individuals and organizations that recognize that this is a major issue that needs to be prioritized and worked on, I think, gives hope. I think, you know, the second thing that I would say is that one of the big priorities of ACF across all of its programs is really a focus on engaging individuals with lived experiences to be able to be not only hear from them to write to remind us why it is so important, but to really learn and understand how best to implement.

And, I think that this is something that over the last 4 years. ACF has done an incredible job of, and it has made our implementation, our policy decisions, our program decisions, the implementation even stronger because it’s informed by individuals with lived experiences. Our Office of Trafficking in Persons has been front and center in leading that work, and I know that they will continue, and that’ll make the work even more important and impactful.

 

Teresa: You know, I can imagine that as you’re getting ready to sort of close out your tenure and the tenure of the administration, this current administration anyway, there’s going to be a few items that are sort of on your mind as things that you’re either hoping will be carried on or that are the things that are keeping you sleepless as unfinished business.

So, give me some examples of that. Two or three things that you’re like, I just really hope that this carries on into the next administration because it’s so important and we’re getting such good traction and, you know, or there’s a real opportunity here. Maybe the traction hasn’t really hit yet, but I can see that we’re poised for that.

And this is kind of one of those times where you just hate to leave it kind of in the middle of it.

Dr. Sullivan: Yeah, so that, I mean, there’s a lot of things, right, you can pick up at night these days. And I think, you know, I could give you a long list of unfinished business, right? If you look at ACF’s mission, it’s going to be very hard to ever say that our business is finished.

I think just a few things that come to mind, in addition to what we talked about, right, so I think, you know, child welfare prevention, while still, you know, we were able to just launch a notice of funding around a center that really is going to focus on child fatality and make sure that that still remains a focus, and I think that that is, it’s been a priority of ACF and needs to continue to be, even as we focus on prevention.

Briefly mentioned the child care sector. I mean, what I think has happened over the last four years and being able to support child care providers and families and lowering costs, but their child care is still too unaffordable for so many and sort of really be able to build upon that as well as the Head Start program, right, which is administered under ACF, and we’ve really tried to do an incredible amount to strengthen the program to ensure that teachers and staff are compensated at appropriate wages to be able to provide that high quality standards while still having safety, child safety standards in place, but there’s more work to do there.

And so how can we really work to do that? You know, I think programs like LIHEAP and TANF are really lifelines for families. And so, A, you know, making sure that we continue to fund them at adequate levels, but also allowing for both the flexibility to make sure the dollars are used appropriately, but also the monitoring in place to make sure, right, that states are doing the right thing with these dollars and that we are able to watch that very closely.

These are all things that, you know, we worked on, I think can point to a number of achievements, but the work continues. you know, I’m very proud to be leaving ACF with an incredible leadership of career staff who have been here for many years will continue to be here and do that work. But, you know, I think it’s going to take time and effort and investments and continued prioritization, and I am optimistic that we continue to move in the right direction.

 

Teresa: Let’s talk for a moment about child abuse fatalities, because I think that, you know, I’m pleased, you know, that there’s going to not only continue to be a focus, but perhaps, you know, a more directed focus in that NCA, I don’t know, 12 years ago maybe, did a lot of work around child abuse fatalities, and worked on the advocacy side to get the Congressional Commission on that topic, which unfortunately, let’s just say that policymakers didn’t take up perhaps as many of the recommendations as we would have liked.

So, you know, we have shared your sleepless nights of the past when you see those things. So I’m delighted to see that the work is going forward in this way, because it’s another area in which I think just, you know, if you look over decades of data, perhaps not as much traction has been gotten as we’d have liked.

So, what I’m wondering about that is, you know, what are your hopes and sort of forming the center and it’s working to the future that might be, I don’t know, additive to all the great work that’s gone before, but also the disappointments of things that have been tried that didn’t work?

Dr. Sullivan: Yeah, you know, I, again, I think we’ve been talking a lot about how much work has happened, how much progress we’ve made, but how much work there still is to do. Right, and this is, as you said, just a prototypical example of that. So, you know, we absolutely need to So, I think that we need to stay very focused on prevention with the right, whether it’s the Family First Prevention Act, whether it’s some of the regulations around ability to use funds for legal services and kinship care.

And, you know, so much that has happened, this needs to continue to be a priority. But I think a recognition, right, that every single death that occurs, you know, child death that occurs is so tragic. And there, you know, there is still so much more work to do. And so, you know, I think this center is just one example of, A, making sure that we have the data, and know exactly what is happening on the ground. B, to really understand. I think what you said what has been tried and didn’t work, but also right to identify those promising best practices and figure out how best to implement them. You know, I think, see, we talked this idea of these decisions about.

Whether or not to refer into the child welfare system and how to make those decisions and when to do it and then kind of in the child welfare system, what monitoring needs to be in place and interventions. This needs to be, right, continue to be a research focus and the center is really designed to make sure that everyone has the data they need, the resources they need to make those informed decisions and keep it priority.

 

Teresa: Well, we look forward to working with the center. I think that it’s an exciting development for us. And it’s just so interesting. I was just setting up a call with a researcher in the space who has had some promising practices out of Georgia, so we’ll be interested to dig into that and to find out more about what the center is doing as well and what you all are working on.

And, maybe there’s some synergy there for the future. Well, you know, we could talk a long time. You, you guys have a huge purview and you’ve been involved in so very many things, but I’m wondering if there’s anything that I should have asked you and didn’t, or anything else that you wanted to make sure that we talked about today.

 

Dr. Sullivan: Like you said, there’s so much that we do. And so, I feel you can probably have a big list, but I, you know, I think I will maybe just kind of end by first thanking you for having, right, this important conversation. I think both as we talk about prevention and making sure that our families have support, but also around just to reiterate, knowing January is Human Trafficking Prevention Month and the work that is happening there.

You know, one of the things that I did not directly talk about with Office of, you know, mentioned Office of Trafficking in Persons, but obviously ACF also received the Office of Refugee and Resettlement, where kind of screening individuals as they arrive, whether it’s unaccompanied children or new arrivals in our refugee program.

For indicators or risks of trafficking for having previously experienced trafficking and then really having measures in place and taking, especially in the unaccompanied children program. These are focused on having a child welfare lens to make sure that we are putting things in place to prevent it going forward.

I think this is something that has been a major focus and will continue to be as well. It needs to be. So I feel a little bit like a broken record, but really spend every day thinking about all of the different programs that ACF tries to do in different ways that we really do trying to fill the mission and have to,  again, be proud of what we have done, but know that this work really needs to continue and the way to really make it continue is to make sure.

That not only does ACF have the resources it needs to be able to provide it, but that we have really strong partnerships with our state, territorial, and tribal partners, with our community based organizations. And that again, we are centering everything on the children and families we serve, particularly those with lived experiences.

And I think that if we continue to do that, We’ll just continue to move in the right direction.

 

Teresa: Well, thank you so much, not only for coming on One in Ten, but also for your public service. I think that that doesn’t get said enough to public servants that it is really a sacrifice to do the work and no matter how much you love it.

And so, just know that we appreciate you and your team and all that you’re contributing to keeping kids safe here, right here in the good old USA. So, thank you again.

 

Dr. Sullivan: Well, thank you again for having me. And it really has been an honor to serve in this role. And I really have appreciated everyone that I’ve had the opportunity to work with and everything that they do every day.

 

Teresa: Thanks for listening to 1 in 10. You can now also view each episode on our YouTube channel, ‘NCA for CACs’ and for more information about this episode, or any of our other ones, please visit our podcast website at oneintenpodcast.org.