Honoring their Stories: Intentional Engagement in Advocacy, Education, and Prevention

Blake Warenik: I’ve been involved as a producer of our One in Ten podcast since the very beginning. That was seven seasons ago. I think. This was just a little project that we started right at the very beginning and we weren’t quite sure where it would go. But now there have been 187,000 listens and that’s just on the podcast platforms we put it on.

We started putting it on YouTube and some of those episodes have gone a hundred thousand an episode, you know, and some of those listeners are really important to us to get to those demographics as well. It’s been a great project. Part of the reason that Teresa asked me to come up and introduce her is because this is the fourth time that we’ve done this, that we’ve had a conference keynote session that we’ve turned into a live episode.

They can be a little bit more unpredictable than some of our studio sessions, but I really think that they’re a lot more rewarding because they happen face to face. So I’m pleased to introduce to you our host of the podcast and NCA’s CEO, Teresa Huizar.

 

Teresa Huizar: It’s so good to be with you. This is always like a giant family reunion. I just absolutely love the leadership conference and seeing all of you, your inspiring faces, your inspiring stories, and you’re about to hear from three other super inspiring people as well. It doesn’t come amiss that this conference is named Everyday Champions because all of you are champions and you’re about to hear from three other champions.

And so it’s my pleasure to introduce them and then I’m gonna tell you a little bit about, as they join me on stage, a little bit about why we decided to hold the panel that we’re holding on the topic that we’re holding it, but survivorship and the involvement of survivors in our work is really a growing area, and it’s just critically important and it’s so exciting to think about the fact that now because Children’s Advocacy Centers are about 40 years old, there are more than 3 million adults who went through Children’s Advocacy Centers as children. And those individuals are out there living their best lives in most cases, and so many of them are involved at the local level.

We know that serving on board, serving on fundraising committees, volunteering in some way, supporting us through their advocacy work and it’s time to really talk about how do we make sure whether they came through a CAC or didn’t come through a CAC, that we’re working with them, honoring their stories and doing that in a way that is respectful, non- traumatizing, ethical, and all of those things.

So we have three experts to talk with us today about that, starting with Jenna Quinn, so many of you know Jenna because she’s been to your own conferences, but she is a nationally recognized keynote speaker, author, and passionate survivor voice for victim advocacy. Since 2004, Jenna’s story has sparked national awareness on the importance of prevention.

Her voice in activism led to groundbreaking legislation called Jenna’s Law, which many of you have heard about that started in Texas and now actually is a federal law. It’s the first comprehensive child sexual abuse prevention education mandate in the U.S., which requires K-12 sexual abuse prevention for students, school staff, and caregivers.

I think it’s important to know that as a survivor who benefited from the services of one Children’s Advocacy Center, Jenna has now worked with over 200 Children’s Advocacy Centers across the country. She’s also the founder of Reveal to Heal International, a nonprofit dedicated to addressing the spiritual impact of child sexual abuse.

We also have with us Jimmy Widdifield, who again, so many of you know, Jimmy is the project director for grant training and resources at the National Children’s Advocacy Center in Huntsville, Alabama. He has experience with planning and providing a range of technical assistance and training nationally and internationally with an emphasis on children and adolescents with problematic sexual behavior.

For more than 20 years, he’s provided evidence-based clinical assessment and treatment of children aged 3 through 12 with PSB and adolescents with illegal sexual behaviors and their families. Jimmy has co-authored book chapters on clinical services for children with problematic sexual behaviors as well as group and family treatment manuals. And of course, many of your clinicians have been trained by him or used his training resources.

And last but certainly not least, we have Danielle Moore. Dr. Danielle Moore is Vice President and founding board member of the Army of Survivors, an organization committed to ending sexual abuse in sports and supporting those affected.

Since the organization’s inception in 2018, Dr. Moore has played a pivotal role in its mission, leveraging her expertise to promote policy changes, survivor support, and education on athlete safety. As a Nassar survivor and survivor of all those who enabled him as well, she’s made this process and wants to make the process of getting help more seamless for survivors and their families.

Through her work with the army of survivors, Danielle is committed to changing the culture of sport, advocating for policies that prioritize athletes safety, and ensuring that survivors are supported throughout their healing and justice journeys. Now, will you join me in welcoming all three of these outstanding everyday champions to the stage?

So whether you’re joining us in person for our online conference or at One in Ten, I wanna tell you a little bit about why this panel is so important to me personally, but also to all of us. And that is that as we’ve seen this growth of survivor inclusion and programming and advocacy and all these things, and really leadership in all those areas too, I think that we haven’t given maybe all the attention we should into how to do this work and this partnership in ways that are trauma-informed, more ethical, paying attention to the ways in which we’re doing it to ensure that we’re not exploiting that relationship by accident even.

And I had an experience at a conference which was organized by no one in this room. Okay. Nobody you even know. So don’t start thinking about what conference it was. But it was a few months ago and everybody had the best intentions in the world. And they really included lots of adult survivors in the various sessions.

And I sat on a panel with an adult survivor. Because of the way it occurred, I could tell that the survivor was getting really triggered in the conversation. I could also tell that the conference and panel facilitator had no idea what to do. And so this just went on for like an hour and I felt so terrible because the entire purpose of these partnerships is to lift up this voice and strengthen survivors, right?

That’s the entire point of it all. And yet I could tell that what was occurring in the room was the opposite of that. And so as we were thinking about this conference and the conference planning, I thought it’s really time to have that conversation as a movement. You know, that we want to have this partnership, but we also want it to be healthy and good for everyone who’s a part of it.

So thank you for joining in and being a part of what I think is gonna be a really important conversation. And the place I wanna start this conversation is about how you each decided that you were going to essentially go public? Now, some of that was taken outta your hands depending on what happened, right?

But at the same time, there was a period of time in which your family was aware you were survivors, your friends, maybe even the media had commented on this. But honestly, that would’ve gone away after some period of time. But you decided in a conscious way to say, I’m going to use what has happened to me, I’m gonna use this experience and my voice to do something more meaningful. What I want to, you know, I want to invite this conversation to be about, to start with is how did you make that decision? What motivated it, how did you think about it? And Jenna, maybe I’ll just start with you ’cause you’re closest and then I’ll give everybody an opportunity to weigh in now.

 

Jenna Quinn: Now, I think it’s a very essential conversation that we’re having today. And for me personally, some of you are familiar with my story and some of you may not be. But for me it was never my desire to be intentional to share my story in the first place. It was not a desire that I had.

And so for me it was really a twofold decision. Number one, we had our big newspaper, the Dallas Morning News where I live, reached out just days after the perpetrator was sentenced to prison. They called my parents’ home answering machine phone back when we had home phones and left a voicemail.

And I was deeply supported by my parents either way. So they said, if you would like to do this interview, we support you. If you don’t wanna do this interview, we support that decision as well. And so I was 17 years old at this time and I made the decision to do this Dallas Morning News interview and cover whatever questions he had, but then, the twofold choice came to my surprise when the reporter made a remark that I was uncomfortable with.

So the very last thing he asked me, was, Jenna, what would you say to other survivors that are living in this right now? What message do you have for them? And I said, you know, just tell someone, but don’t just tell anyone.

Tell someone that’s going to take the appropriate steps to get you the help that you need, the help that you deserve, and the healing that should take place in your life. And he said, okay, thank you, Jenna. And he’s walking to the door and my parents are there the whole time, and we’re in the foyer.

And he turns back and he looks at me and he says, and don’t worry, Jenna, we won’t put your name in the paper. And this supernatural boldness came over me from someplace else, because at the time I’m receiving services at the center, and I’m still very much healing. I can barely make eye contact. My shoulders are slumped over.

I can barely even carry on a conversation, right? But what he said stirred me, and I looked at him and I square my shoulders, and I shouted. I said, no. I said, you can’t do that. And he looked at me and he looked at my parents, very puzzled. And I said, you just asked me to give an encouraging word to other survivors, and how can I do that?

How can I ask them to report and come forward if I’m too ashamed to have my name published? And so really what I was doing now, looking back, was really challenging shame. Challenging the stereotypes of shame because I had lived in silence, and I had lived in shame and secrecy for so long that for me internally in my moral code, I didn’t want to feed into any of those stereotypes. It’s perfectly okay if you don’t want your name published, but for me in that moment, I was 100% secure in that decision. And I think that’s important for people to understand.

 

Teresa: Well, and that it was your decision, right? In order to make that, you had some agency that you could exercise as a part of that.

Jimmy, what about you?

 

Jimmy Widdifield: It’s a great question. And the field, you know, we talk about we’re integrating lived experience more, but I say we’ve been doing it all along. The vast majority of people in this room that know me, don’t know that I was sexually abused as a very young child. And when I was doing clinical work and training, I decided very intentionally to share, right?

I was looking for some connection because I’m no different than you. I mean, One in Ten for the podcast name says it all. We think 1 in 10 people in this room. I started sharing a little bit of just basically that I had been sexually abused at a very young age. And then the response was just a lot of sympathy and that’s not what I was going for.

It was really this decision of we’re no different. I may be a therapist, it’s my sexual abuse history is not why I’m in the field. Very few people know about it. And then I stopped sharing. I stopped saying it because it, it just became, oh, I’m so sorry that this was your experience. I’m like, I’m not looking for that.

I’m looking for, I am no different than many of the kids that we’re treating, or their caregivers or the professionals that we work with, that I am just as much as part of this community. And lived experience for me also branches into marginalized identity as well. And that became so much more of a focus in the work I was doing.

So it was a moment of trying to decide when is it good for me to share, to have that connection and to have that relationship because it’s really important to me. And when is it my time to take a step back and really then focus on the kids that we’re serving? And more so the professionals.

More recently the victims of Child Abuse Act partnership and our work has a small work group on lived experience and many of us have shared what our experiences have been as victims of abuse or, again, other types of identities and really making it intentional and wanting to identify that in other professionals and the work that we do because, again, 1 in 10. That’s a lot of who we’re working with and who we’re working for. Not only just those that we’re serving.

 

Teresa: You know, it’s interesting, Jenna, you were talking about your motivation. It came from this place of reacting to, you know, sort of anti-shame, right? Anti-shaming, saying, I’m pushing back on that.

And Jimmy, you’re talking about not willing to be othered essentially by it. And so I’m curious, Danielle, what it was for you?

 

Danielle Moore: Honestly, I don’t think I thought through the whole thing. Prior to giving my victim impact statement, which is when I first went public, I was anonymous, so I was just listed as a number.

I think I was honestly driven by anger to stand up and show that I was strong despite, you know, still healing and going through the process and still being very symptomatic. So when I gave my statement, I knew that there was gonna be media there. I knew that our case was receiving a lot of attention, but I wasn’t prepared for the amount, I wasn’t prepared for the cameras in your face.

The reporters coming up to you afterwards, being very pushy, wanting to get the story. So I was not prepared at all and I didn’t realize that giving that statement launched me into a whole other realm of advocacy. But I really wanted to show that I was, mostly to myself, that I was strong and that I wasn’t just a number.

That’s why I decided to go public and I’ve been speaking out since, but I wasn’t prepared at first.

 

Teresa: Look, I wanna talk about actually that, so I’m glad you brought it up. Excellent segue about the issue of preparation, because I’m sure there is in one sense nothing can prepare you for what it will be like, but on the other hand, at some point, whether it’s before you spoke out for the first time, or whether it was in reaction to what happened when you spoke up for the first time, you know, how did you sort of prepare yourself for the second time? Because it seems to me that that’s really the most intentional act. Wasn’t necessarily the first moment you decided to do it, but when you saw what happened with that and then you’re like, you know what, I’m not gonna stop, I’m gonna continue on.

What prepared you for that, if anything did? I don’t wanna assume that anything did. But if something did, what was it?

 

Jenna: I think for me, that initial moment, you know, I was deeply supported and in a sense, personally ready by being so convinced of my decision and that profound support is not a small thing.

It’s not something that should be minimized. I’m grateful that I had at this point, from the time I made my outcry to the trial and the prison sentence, I had been going through the services of the advocacy center. So I had the individual counseling, I had group counseling with other girls, I had the court preparation services and so I was deeply supported. I felt that support and for me, support equals readiness. Because without that support, you know, where is the sense of validation? Because you can’t look to the general public to validate your story. That’s not where you should look for validation.

And so I knew the advocacy center validated, confirmed, honored the truth of what had happened to me. And that to me equaled being, you know, deeply supported and personally ready. And my parents were supportive. My family was supportive. I had no idea that there would be such a need or a desire for people to wanna learn more.

I didn’t realize that there would be a hunger. This is back in 2004, there would be a hunger for people to learn and hear from someone who has gone through something like this that’s willing to be real vulnerable and transparent about their experience. And so when you really see the difference that it’s making and the empowerment that it brings to other survivors, that really helps with, you know, feeling like 100%, you’ve made the right decision.

 

Teresa: Jimmy, what do you think prepared you as you were thinking about going, you know, I’m not willing to be, to feel sort of marginalized or othered by this experience that I’ve had. I don’t wanna say that I’m somehow so separate from the kids we’re serving, the other colleagues I have, those kinds of things. Was there anything in particular that prepared you for that or that made you feel ready for that? Or is it one of those things where you did it and found that the experience was reinforcing in and of itself or something else?

 

Jimmy: You know, my experience was in 1980, well before Children’s Advocacy Centers existed.

And while I didn’t have direct support from my mother who knew, but as an adult it was important to me, and just as a person that I could talk about anything. You want to hear about my sex life, I’m ready to talk to you about my sex life. Right.

 

Teresa: Not right now though. Not right now.

 

Jimmy: Catch me at the break.

Right. But talking about my sexual health, right. Talking about my beliefs and my values, and when I decided to disclose in a presentation or a clinical training that I had been sexually abused, it was kind of a spur of the moment thing, which is pretty common for me, as you know. But then I spent some time thinking about really, why and what are my values and beliefs? And I believe that we should be able to talk openly about our experiences, whatever those experiences are. So much of abuse is still not talked about. It is still stigmatized. That’s certainly been my experience with children and teens who initiate sexual harm.

Nobody wants to talk about those kids. And so for me it was important to normalize, I can talk about this. If I can talk to you about having lower back pain, I should be able to talk about these experiences and do it in a way that isn’t, so many of you know the term sliming, right?

I don’t need to go into detail, but we can have these conversations and we can make that connection. So for me, it was try it. I had that sympathy response. So I pulled back a little bit and I really reflected on what’s important to me and why is this important to the work I do and the people that I work with and for. So that was my, that was my preparation. It was really my own internal work.

 

Teresa: Danielle, I’m wondering is there anything that sort of, with the benefit of hindsight, that you look back and you say, if I had known X, I might have thought differently about either the timing or how I decided to be more public or just any of that. ’cause I think that, you know, sometimes with the families that we work with, when I was a center director myself, I remember this family that had decided to speak to the media and we sort of warned them ahead of time, like, you know, informed consent. You know, you cannot assume that every question’s a good question, right?

And has your good intent at heart. And you can’t assume that everybody who’s gonna read the story is gonna react in the way that you’d like them to, those kinds of things. But I think it’s hard until you have the experience to sort of take that in and really know that. And so I’m curious about your own experience with that. Was there something that you look back and say, gosh, I wish someone had flagged this for me?

 

Danielle: Yeah, definitely. I wish I had more preparation in terms of how to deal with the difficult questions or how to handle the media. I have learned that, you know, you can have certain talking points and pivot away from the more difficult questions, but that comes more with experience.

So that would’ve been really helpful ’cause then you, you know, when you’re asked a difficult question, it catches you off guard. And then you might not express really what you wanna say. Looking back, and I give this advice to others who are thinking about, you know, coming forward and sharing their story.

Sometimes they feel like they have this obligation to share. They see other people doing it and they feel like they need to do that as well. So reflecting on that, like internal drive versus like an obligation to do so. And I always give the advice that, you know, if you wanna speak out, if this is not what you wanna talk about, or if you’re a little concerned, there’s so many other causes to advocate for that you can put that effort into those causes.

So you don’t have to necessarily be an advocate for what happened to you. But you can use that energy to still do good.

 

Teresa: Danielle, you’re raising such, I think a valuable point, which is I think that I’ve heard from so many survivors that they feel this tremendous drive to make sure that this thing doesn’t happen to other children.

Right? That this is a major motivating factor for their decision making around this, but we shouldn’t put pressure on people even when we don’t need to, to feel like they’re carrying the weight of every victim in society on their shoulders somehow, because that’s a burden too great for anyone to bear and really, you know, unnecessary in that way. And I think it’s such a good point that people can use their voice for all kinds of things and not feel like it has to in particular be this issue.

I’m interested though, kind of in going back to your media conversation, ’cause I think that you made a really interesting point, which is that the more you speak to media, the better you get at getting your own message across and not being just a passive recipient for whatever they want to try to dig out of you.

But really, you know, I think managing what you are trying to say, what you are trying to convey. But as you say, this takes some training and I think many CACs have an adult survivor or group of survivors that have said that they’re willing to speak out, they’re willing to talk to media, and because, you know, obviously we’re not gonna put the kids out there for any of that.

And I’m curious about what your advice is about the way to approach shaping your own message and managing those pivots. Because I think that kind of training honestly could be really helpful. First of all, the CAC leaders themselves, but secondly, if an adult survivor is willing to speak up and out on behalf of these issues, I think that’s really practical help that a CAC could bring to bear for them.

 

Danielle: Yes, a hundred percent. I would remind survivors that they are in control of their narrative. They don’t have to answer certain questions. They can, you know, say pass or, you know, and that’s hard to do in somebody’s asking you a direct question, usually it requires an answer, but you don’t have to answer the question.

That’s what editing rooms are for. They can pass over that. I would also say practice. Lots of practice. You can look at other interviews, see how they went, from other individuals. See the difficult questions or even think through them yourself. Get some of your support people to kind of walk through what the interview might look like and practice.

Also, write down a few talking points. You can keep it with you if you’d like, and stick to those. And that’s your guideline. And you don’t have to stray from that.

 

Teresa: I think what you could think about too is the way in which politicians do this, right? Like any interview of a politician, they’re there to get their talking points across and to pivot any question back to their talking points.

So even if you don’t have the benefit of looking at survivor interviews for this, I think, you know, honestly any politician interview will be its own instructive advice on how to pivot. So I’m just wondering though, is there anything, and speak up whoever wants to talk about this, is there anything that, with the benefit of hindsight you wish someone had said to you before you decided to do your first interview or speak out? Just a word of caution or maybe encouragement or whatever it was, but is there something you wish you had known before you did?

 

Danielle: I would say something very easy. Don’t look at the comments. That’s really difficult to do or have somebody else look at the comments and be like, okay, no, you can go ahead. Because the negative ones stick out. The positive ones just kind of, you know, disappear. So those stick with you quite a bit.

 

Teresa: It’s such a good point. I was thinking about, you know, one of the shock I think many survivors have found is the degree to which people wind up being trolled online after they come forward with their story and the hatefulness of some of the comments. I think people think that sometimes there’s going to be lots, as you would hope, lots of encouragement and support and instead this strange, I don’t even know what to call it. It’s just so evil, I think, to pick on survivors in this way. But, but it definitely is a feature and I think it’s so smart to just say as a practical matter, advising people just don’t even open that. Don’t even read it and fill your head with that. Anyone else wanna talk about something you wish I’d know?

 

Jenna: I think it’s important for survivors to know that, you know, I tell survivors this all the time. There’s no deadline to have to share. It’s okay if it takes years to be able to share or say no to one interview, say yes to this one. Like giving them the power, the personal control back to say I’m not gonna do this interview at this time right now, but if one comes along in six months, maybe I’ll do that one.

And, you know, I’ll choose on my own terms. And so I think it’s really important for survivors to understand that they share their stories in their own terms. In their own personal deadlines. And, you know, it should be through personal empowerment and not because they feel pressure.

 

Teresa: So important that, you know, I think that when the reporter calls, it feels like, oh, I’m on deadline.

It’s like, well, it’s not my deadline, is it? That’s right. I saw you look like you wanted to comment as well.

 

Jimmy: You know, I think for me, just someone to have told me just to be authentic, right. Be who you are. There’s no expectation for you to be anything else. Right. And you know, when I see people share their stories, and I’ve seen that go horribly wrong, Teresa, as you have, it seemed like there was an image they were trying to present, right. That they’ve gotta look somehow calm about it and professional in a way, and sharing this really poignant story. And I think those things are important. But then we lose who we are as individuals. And so to have someone tell me, just you being you up there, whatever that is.

I think having a group of people, ’cause I did this on my own. I was not checking in with anybody. I didn’t talk to my partner before I did this. My family, we don’t talk about this in my family at all. So it was on me.

And that was really my choice. I could have reached out to others. So be authentic and have a good support system around you. Like my new friends and colleagues on the panel are saying, having that kind of group support so you don’t have to do it alone.

 

Teresa: I wanna pivot now a little bit to talking about the ethics of all of this, because I think that’s a piece that maybe has been under discussed and it’s ripe for discussion.

And I wanna start in the place that, one of the things that I have a question in my own mind about and some concern about is whether when you are asked to speak up by someone, whether it’s a reporter or in a public speaking setting, or whatever, worry that survivors are put in a place where they feel that they’re almost expected to recount their trauma narrative in some way.

And I’d like to just, you know, I don’t know if you feel that or not ever, so I don’t wanna assume on your behalf, but I have definitely been in settings where I felt like there was this sort of unspoken pressure. And I wanna talk about that because that feels to me coercive. Like there’s something about that that I can’t exactly put my finger on, but it bothers me.

You know, just sort of like, how would I like if someone asked me to recount something so deeply personal? And just sort of expected me to talk about that with some level of detail and these other things. Well, first of all, am I just being oversensitive here? Like is that just not happening and I’m making this up, in which case we’ll move on to the next question.

Or is there something that’s worth exploring about how to do this in a more ethical way than maybe, and I’m not talking about anybody specific in this room, or even just the CAC movement, but with the public is expecting when a survivor comes forward, and I’m just lobbing that out to the group.

 

Jimmy: I think there’s an expectation.

We all, many people find it inspirational to hear someone’s story and the details. I don’t need to hear that. I’ve been in the field 20 plus years. These are the children that I work with or when I was doing clinical work every day. But I think it’s, we as a society have come to expect, oh, you should, we should know your story.

Your stories were very public in the news. And that’s so common in what we see in media that then it becomes the norm for those cases locally, right, that aren’t gonna be on the media, but there’s still interviews, or as they’re meeting people, I think it can be exploitive. I do like your term, Teresa, in terms of it being coercive.

Not maliciously coercive, but it’s expected. And moving away from that, particularly for those people that are not ready or still having a lot of potentially symptoms or it’s just a bad memory they don’t wanna talk in detail about, how we can help change this cultural expectation to: I don’t need to hear your details.

What do I need to know though, from your experience? What is important for change or to support others? Right. Just as other people have said on the panel.

 

Danielle: Yeah. Teresa, what you were saying, I call that emotional bait. In terms of just ethics, you need to look at, when you’re asking a survivor to speak, what is the actual purpose?

Is it for fundraising? Is it marketing? Is it to raise awareness and not just using this survivor as a testimonial? You need to invite them into the conversation. There needs to be other opportunities to participate, whether it’s like advisory boards or consultation. That survivor needs to have more insight into the organization because they’re using their story to fulfill a purpose.

But the survivor story is what drives the organization, and you need that type of input in order to do really good work.

 

Teresa: So really broadening the range of that relationship in a way that can feel healthier and not like it’s being even inadvertently transactional essentially, is what you’re saying.

 

Jenna: I think there’s a profound ethical responsibility when you are, like you said, you know, we are being entrusted, whether it’s an organization or a media outlet, you are being entrusted with the brokenness of someone’s soul, their story, they’re sharing their pain with you. And so for what reasons are they sharing, right?

And so for media, it’s all about bait clicks or trauma. You know, they want the details, they want that gasp, that awe factor. But if we’re talking about, you know, nonprofits or CACs, I think it becomes very different. And I think that, you know, especially for this audience here you are the hands and feet, the ones that come along, the survivors to help them heal. And so I think it’s a different conversation than for the CACs because that ethical responsibility becomes how do we share the story and amplify their message while also protecting the person behind the story at the same time.

And that includes avoiding exploitation and then also tokenism as well.

 

Teresa: You know, that was on my list too. I see we all have notes up here. We’re all very prepared. But I wanna talk. We are! Like, my goodness, you know, we wouldn’t be who we are if we weren’t. But let’s talk about tokenism for a minute, because I think that can happen too, where, you know, in this move to invite survivors in to governance, to planning, those kinds of things, sometimes there’s a little bit of like, let’s have one.

Do you know what I mean? Like let’s have one person on our board who’s a survivor, let’s have one person on our advisory committee that’s a survivor. Let’s have one person who’s involved with some kind of programming or ask one person one time about that. What is your advice about ways to authentically invite input into the programming and into the services that are being delivered by providing your perspective about that, while not expecting any one survivor to speak for all survivors either.

 

Danielle: Now there’s too many stories out there and each story is different. So to have one survivor tell their story over and over again, you’re cutting out huge groups of people. So to diversify your speaking panel is super important. Just so people feel included and represented. With the Army of Survivors, my organization, we are looking to put together a speaker’s bureau.

I don’t wanna say task, but the speeches don’t have to fall on one or two different people and we can kind of spread it out. And that way we’re getting diverse perspectives as well.

 

Teresa: Such a good idea to have a speaker’s bureau in that way. Anything else that’s been a part of your experience, Jenna or Jimmy?

 

Jimmy: When I was a part of another organization, the National Center on Sexual Behavior of Youth, we pulled together a parent-partnership board of caregivers of children and teens who had problematic sexual behavior and had gone through treatment. And so while not specific to my own experience or child maltreatment, these were still youth involved in child sexual abuse.

And we asked their caregivers what they wanted to contribute. So really just giving them that power. They all agreed, they weren’t there to tell their story, but they just wanted to share about their experience. And then they each took on different things. Some wanted to be involved in reviewing materials, others wanted to be involved in giving opinions, maybe on marketing and really just allowing people with lived experience, whatever that experience is, they get to make those decisions on what to contribute.

And so if it’s having someone be a part of your board, I think a good question would be, why is this important to you? What would you like to see accomplished by your participation as someone with lived experience? And then really integrating that into the purpose of whatever they’re joining.

 

Teresa: You know, we’ve talked a little bit about issues of tokenism, not doing things that are exploitive, those kinds of things. Are there other ethical considerations that maybe I haven’t thought of, but you’ve been thinking about since we first put together the panel and said, this is something we really want to address?

 

Jenna: I think there’s so many, we could probably do another hour just on ethical best practices for utilizing and amplifying survivor voices. But I think that informed consent, I think you mentioned it before, is really critical because if I am gonna enter into this partnership, whether it’s a board position or coming to speak at a fundraiser or conference or even this Q and A panel, make sure that there is ongoing communication on here is, you know, you choose, you can control what’s told in your story, what’s not told. You don’t have to share everything. Don’t feel pressure to share everything. And then also making sure, you know, they understand the purpose, the reason, what the story is going to be shared for. That way that preserves the dignity and there’s complete transparency as far as what they are entering into and what they can expect. And if they have questions, that should be encouraged as well. As far as, well, I’m not sure about this or I’m uncomfortable with this. Making sure that autonomy is preserved at all costs.

Because as you all know, that sense of power and control, giving them back that power is equally important through that process and the ability to make choices.

 

Teresa: One of the things, that’s an excellent segue into another one of the things I wanted to talk a little bit about, which is how do we make sure that the work that we’re doing and inviting and amplifying survivor voice is really trauma informed?

I mean, we pride ourselves on being trauma-informed with kids and certainly with caregivers when they’re in our children’s advocacy centers. But I’m curious about in this world, in the world of speaking up and out, in the world of using survivor voice and advocacy and training in public speaking, and those kinds of things, are there ways that we can help ensure that that experience, to the extent that we can make it so is trauma-informed, and if someone is struggling for whatever reason, that we’re intervening appropriately in that situation and not leaving someone feeling unsupported when they’ve taken on that task of speaking on our behalf or for us?

 

Jenna: Ongoing support is key. And it’s a critical part of this because as you know, at any point in time there can be, well, you just never know. There can be triggers, there can be different things that resurface. And so, just by nature of, you know, this field and many enter into this field because they are survivors, right?

And that’s their form of advocacy. And I think that mental health check-ins before, throughout the process and even a mental health check-in after the event or after the conference or whatever the situation may be, I think that ongoing support, and maybe they might not necessarily take you up on it, but just knowing that there is ongoing support for mental health is very key.

 

Teresa: Thank you. Did you wanna comment on that, Danielle?

 

Danielle: Yes. The trauma-informed approach, every step needs to be carefully thought out. And that goes to password protection for emails, back-office staff communication needs to be trained in trauma-informed approaches. There needs to be that constant communication and constant transparency about what is going to happen, what is happening.

You know, like Jenna said, having those check-ins, even though you know, survivors might not use it, that communication pipeline is open and that’s important. And then offering, you know, flexibility in terms of the communication. There’s an email late at night, and I emailed some of the organizers yesterday, just had a quick comment and they emailed me right back and it was great.

And then in addition, if a survivor wants to back out, not having negative consequences for that, you know, there’s a reason they’re doing that. And to kind of be prepared for that or to have a backup or be able to talk with the survivor about like reasons why and get feedback on could we have done something differently.

And then if you’re helping a survivor with like a third party, screen that third party, make sure they’re trauma-informed, make sure you know the questions they’ll be asking and be that buffer for the survivor.

 

Teresa: As you guys were talking, one of the things that I was just thinking about was the degree to which what we’re really talking about is about building a trusting relationship and doing things as Children’s Advocacy Centers as a movement that not only with kids, but with the adult survivors, we’re continuously reinforcing that trust and we know how to do that with kids so we know how to do it and can do it with adults. It’s just like taking that extra step to think about some of those things. Right? And remind ourselves that we can’t just assume that people are okay. And to your point, someone could, for whatever reason that we may not even know, feel like today I cannot do this. And we’ve gotta be able to be okay with that and be supportive and all the things we are if that happens. So I’m just wondering, you know, often, and I’m gonna ask you about this, but often we talk about sort of negative variants, like what went wrong, right?

But we don’t often talk about positive variants, like an example of something that went really right. But now I’m gonna ask you about that because I think it’s important when we’re thinking about, okay, well what does this mean at as a practical level and not just theoretical, what does it look like when you are partnered with, whether it’s with media, whether it’s advocacy, whether it’s by a Children’s Advocacy Center, whatever.

I’d like to just hear an example of a time when it went really right, and then what about that made it really right.

 

Jimmy: I had an experience, again presenting or training, I think it was a presentation at a conference. And someone came up to me afterwards and said, thank you, thank you for sharing your story.

And again, not details, but just that I’d had this experience. And they zero it in on the authenticity of it. And they’re like, I have my own abuse history. And so then I’m hearing about theirs and kind of what their struggles are. And we just had a great conversation. And so, again, I’ll take it back to that authenticity and that really helped one person.

And if I’ve learned anything more recently, is that for every ripple that we create, even if it’s that one person, ’cause we talk about if we can just save one child, if we can just help one person that ripples out. And it was such a beautiful thing to see, right? And then that person carries that forward.

 

Danielle: I’ve had similar experiences. Luckily, I was giving a talk about more specifically about my story to a group of college students and I was able to completely control the narrative. They gave like a very general topic and then I was the one that narrowed it down. Obviously tailored to the specific audience, but I had that complete control and they offered a lot of space for especially the audience being so young, having lots of crisis counselors, very visible.

And having luckily a lot of time afterwards ’cause I was approached by many individuals that wanted to share their story or just say thank you or whatnot. And that was available to those students and we had like a separate space for it as well. So there is a sense of privacy.

 

Teresa: Lots of support and then privacy for any private conversations. Got it. How about you, Jenna?

 

Jenna: I actually had something happen where it was both cases. The event went really well, but then also there was something in there where I would say, don’t ever do this. We all have those, so yeah, we, like you said, we have those as well. So you get the good and the bad.

Either way, the outcome was tremendous. But it was for a fundraiser to raise funds and to speak and to share my story. And it was a good process because, you know, we had talked about what I was gonna say. I had showed them the script and we were all informed consent for both parties, right? Like, I’m not gonna say anything that’s gonna surprise you, you entrusted me with your audience.

So I’m gonna give full disclosure on what I’m saying and I would expect that on your end as well. And so we have the script and it was gonna be a wonderful event. Communication, support, everything. Well, during the day of, we had mic check. And there was a third party there.

So this is what reminded me, because you mentioned a third party for sound, right? And so we’re doing the mic check and the sound, and it was a little bit of a rehearsal, but the man that was there was trying to coach me on how to say my own story. And you know, literally coaching, he would be like, ‘now pause and then say, now when I told my parents, da, da, da,’ and I said, I’m sorry.

I’m not comfortable with this. This is authentic. I never wanna be coached on how to share this. It’s gotta be authentic, it’s gotta be real. Everything down to the rhythm of my heart. This has got to be completely genuine. I don’t wanna be coached on this. And so, but you know, he really wanted to have his, but you think about that because there’s a balance, because you want, preparedness is important, so you want them to be prepared.

You want them to feel ready. And this group didn’t even know that this was happening, that this person that, that we’re just doing a mic check. Like I wouldn’t, and I was caught by surprise by this sort of coaching, and it was just very odd, very uncomfortable. I said, I’m sorry I’ve done this before, with all due respect, I don’t wanna be coached through this either way.

It was a beautiful event. It was tremendous and, it was just. We had done all the right things, but then there was something that came in right at the last minute that really caught me off guard, and I thought, no, you don’t wanna over prepare or over coach someone on how to share their story too.

I think that’s really important.

 

Teresa: Well, and I really appreciate you speaking up too, and just pushing back on that. Thanks. But I think I’m the expert on my own story. Appreciate that input there. I’m wondering though, that’s a kind of a good segue into the next question, which is sort of like cautionary tales, thinking about and I don’t want you to necessarily feel like you have to tell about something that went horribly wrong, but just something where you’re like, gosh, if I had a piece of advice about what not to do, like this is just really a place you don’t wanna go, and anything that pops to mind where you’re like, Hmm, not so much.

 

Danielle: I did a interview that was posted on YouTube and for me the caption was a little triggering. I don’t know if it was like that for others. It probably wasn’t. But in terms of advice, the person speaking should have, you know, final say in anything that is released in terms of, you know, pictures and even like the hashtags used, even the small things.

I’ve made the mistake of not asking what picture they’ve been using, and there’s a horrible picture of myself walking out of the courtroom and I’m like, just a mess. And it keeps being used. I’m like, oh, I wish I would’ve, you know, screened that. ’cause now it’s all out there. So yeah, that’s something that, that narrative you can control.

 

Jimmy: Oh.

 

Teresa: Jimmy’s like where to start? Where to start.

 

Jimmy: Where have I gotten in trouble before, Teresa? My use of humor. And dark humor in particular. I’m seeing all of your heads shake when I say dark humor, because you are all grossly inappropriate people. But I use humor as my own emotional regulation.

I use humor to make content easier for people to hear. And I skirt a line. And when it comes to even talking about my own experiences, whatever those are, I am not doing well in some points just because I’m anxious or nervous. And then my dark humor comes across as callous, as not being sensitive to other victims and survivors. And that’s not my intent.

I am just caught up in a moment. So that’s my kind of cautionary tale, is that I think that people that are sharing their lived experience may get caught up in the emotionality of it, and then something comes out. And for me it’s gonna be an off-color joke or comment, um, that’s intended to engage, but has now come across as an insult or offensive.

And being able to give myself some grace and compassion there and asking for other people as well, and the audience. I know I’m not everybody’s favorite, I’m working on that. But you know, it’s even those people that do get very upset and I’ve gotten that feedback. It needs to be constructive feedback.

And so when we make that misstep, whatever that is, we’re human. I have to remember to give myself that pep talk sometimes. So it’s just remembering, again, my own emotional regulation where I’m likely to stray and then trying to keep it reigned in.

 

Danielle: Oh, and by the way, I was gonna add. Please don’t Google that picture.

 

Teresa: Everybody immediately does. That’s so true.

 

Jimmy: Wait a minute, I already have it on my watch. Danielle, right here.

 

Teresa: Yeah, Danielle. Everybody’s googling the photo and Jimmy, everybody’s trying to figure out what you said. Right?

I like that is just human nature in these scenarios. So I’m wondering, if you had three things that you’re like CACs, this is what I’m saying. When you are working with a survivor, these are the tips. These are, not that there’s not a million you could say, but just like narrowing it down from the 10 pages to a couple of things.

What are the most important things that you want folks here just to take away from the conversation and be like, these are the things that as principles, we’re really going to take away in working with folks, knowing that every situation is different.

No pressure on that big question by the way.

 

Jenna: I think just keeping in mind that, you know, are we centering this on the survivor’s story or the platform, right? And then also that delicate line between, you know, making sure that all parties are respectful of what’s happening in the whole process, whether it’s a conference or a post that you co-author together or whatever that is.

Make sure there’s an understanding on the survivor’s end of what the story is being used for. I think that’s very important.

 

Jimmy: What immediately comes to mind for me is, we all say everyone’s story is unique. And that’s just become almost trite, I think to say, but don’t make assumptions about people.

People assume that, oh, Jimmy, you’re a clinician because you were sexually abused. You’re gay because you were sexually abused. You’re this because you’re sexually abused. I’m none of that. I’m all of that. I’m some of it. So, don’t make any assumptions. We all come as we are as individuals.

We all have our own backstory. I have other experiences in my life that make me who I am and drive me to do the things that I do. So not making those assumptions and just be open, be curious about other people. I think when we can come with some knowledge, right? We know a lot of things about child sexual abuse and other forms of maltreatment and trauma and adversity, we can have that kind of as a foundation, but we also need to keep that in check and be like, oh, this isn’t you. Okay. If you’re willing to tell me a little bit more about you. And maybe that’s a second thing. Not everyone with lived experience is an expert. And I may be out of sync with most people’s thought there.

Just because I was sexually abused does not make me an expert in it. But other people are. Other people have had different experiences and made different decisions, and so just taking people for who they are and who they want to be and where they want to go.

 

Danielle: I would say focus on uplifting that survivor in a trauma-informed approach.

And if you’re doing that, then you’re going to give that survivor a springboard to share their story authentically and to really have that impact.

 

Teresa: Well, now I’m gonna ask you the big question that’s at the end of almost every podcast interview, which is, is there anything else I should have asked you but didn’t, and this is where it’s dangerous because they really do have like 10 pages of notes, or anything else that you wanted to make sure that we talked about today?

So this is something that you thought was critically important, but maybe we haven’t gotten to it yet.

 

Danielle: Let me check.

 

Teresa: Read through those notes.

 

Danielle: Page 15…

 

Teresa: Yeah, exactly. Point A, point B.

 

Jenna: I think that in all of this, looking at the big picture for both organizations and survivors to understand is healing first, advocacy second.

And I believe that advocacy work should not be a substitute for healing. It should be a fruit of it.

 

Teresa: Yes.

 

Jenna: Because sometimes survivors might feel pressure that they have to tell their stories, like you said, and there’s no deadline for that. And there should be zero pressure actually. When you’re ready to tell your story is when you feel zero pressure and you’re a hundred percent secure, this is who I am and this is what I went through and this is my story. And so I think there’s been a lot of misconceptions about, oh, well, I don’t think I’m healed unless I’m out there and I’m speaking and I’m advocating.

But there’s a lot of ways to contribute for your own healing and for society. I mean, surviving abuse in and of itself is, that’s your story, and you’re contributing to society when you’re healthy and you have wellbeing and you’re able to thrive in your own life and in your relationships and in your family, and in your community.

Surviving is enough. And there’s a lot of ways to contribute. You can be an incredible engineer. You can be an artist, you can be a writer, you can be a filmmaker, you can be a counselor, or you can be a victim advocate. And so I always wanna encourage other survivors that it can look a number of different ways and that strength is what’s gonna speak more powerfully than you know, necessarily, you don’t have to get up onto a stage and share your story with everyone. It can look different.

 

Teresa: Jenna, I think there needs to be t-shirts that say surviving is enough. I think that’s just such an important point to take that pressure off, right? Yeah, just take that pressure right off. Nothing more is being asked.

 

Danielle: Well, there’s quite a few things.

 

Teresa: I knew it. I knew there were quite a few things. Okay, watch the clock now we only have…

 

Danielle: I would say, you know, think about the principle. Nothing about us without us. So again, for an organization to really give a solid contribution, you need that input from survivors.

And that lived experience varies by race, age, gender, sexual orientation, immigration status, and that piece alone is undeniable. You need that in order to be able to serve the communities that you serve. So actually, I summed that up very quickly.

 

Teresa: Look at that! Pages down to 30 seconds, that is a true professional right there.

Awesome. Thank you, Danielle. Jimmy, anything else you wanted to make sure that we talked about?

 

Jimmy: Let me get my notes out, Teresa. I think for me it just comes down to, I exist, right? As a person, who I am, you exist. Out there and we all exist, right? We all have different experiences.

Some of you have not been abused or neglected. Some of you have not experienced other forms of trauma, but you’re here, you’re compassionate, right? And for those of us that have experienced a range of things, we exist and it’s remembering to be loud when that is your voice. It is channeling into other avenues when being loud is not your voice for this, but finding some way to be at peace with who you are, how you got to be here and remembering that the person sitting next to you, I mean, goodness, I’m sitting next to Jenna Quinn and Danielle Moore, right?

And I’m on stage with Teresa. These are powerhouses. The person you’re sitting next to could be anybody, right? And their experiences matter. Who they are matters as an individual, as a person, their intersectionality. I’m really happy that you mentioned that. Their advocacy and all of that matters.

And if we don’t start seeing each other more as humans, and I think we do a good job of that in child maltreatment and Children’s Advocacy Centers, but we’re humans. We exist and we deserve to be safe, loved, healthy, supported, all of those things because of who we are and no matter because of who we are.

 

Danielle: Just to add to that, sorry. For organizations, respect that emotional labor that this takes. And I know we’ve kind of touched on it a little bit, but compensate appropriately. You know, it does take time to travel, to prep. It’s not just an hour and 15 minutes that we’re up here and that’s it. There’s some decompression afterwards. So you have to really just respect that emotional labor.

 

Teresa: So true, so true. Well, thank you guys so much for sharing your wisdom and guidance with us. We’re deeply grateful. Would you join me in just thanking them?

 

Applause