Learn Your Leadership Superpower with Irish Burch

Teresa Huizar:  

Hi, I’m Teresa Huizar, your host of One in Ten. In today’s episode, Learn Your Leadership Superpower, I speak with Irish Birch, longtime leader and mentor of other leaders in the Children’s Advocacy Center movement. Now, a whole mythology has grown up around leadership. First of all, that it’s glamorous. My friends, it is not. Also, that it requires many self-help books written by other glamorous leaders. It doesn’t. And that only a select few can do it.

So not true. We’re all leaders. But as you will hear in this real talk about leadership, Irish points us to leadership as learning and a service to others. What happens when we lead from the knowledge that we’re imperfect? What happens when we lead with a radical candor that spreads the power of information to everyone in the decision? And how does leading with intention drive purpose and meaning across a professional career? You’re in for a treat in hearing from one of our most talented and grounded leaders as she talks about her own leadership journey. Please take a listen.

 

Hi, Irish. Welcome to One in Ten.

  

Irish Burch:  

Hi, Teresa, it’s great to see you and thank you for having me.

 

TH:  

My goodness, I’ve been looking forward to this conversation and I’m looking forward even more to having you at Leadership Conference. But I was trying to think, because you and I have talked about leadership before and how we came to the positions we have, but everybody might not know. So I’m just curious, when you think about your own leadership journey, can you just talk a little bit about kind of how you got to this place?

 

IB: 

Yes. That is the question of the hour. How did I get here? It’s so funny. I thought a lot about my leadership in the last two months, to be perfectly honest. And when I think about it, I can sum it up in one word, and that would be imperfect. Just imperfect leadership. And by that, mean I started out, I’ve been in the child maltreatment my whole entire career. So I started out as a CPS investigator.

And I moved into the CAC movement as a forensic interviewer. I don’t realize that a lot of people didn’t know that information until recently. And so when I became a forensic interviewer, I did the thing that a lot of us do. I got really good at that job. And because I was really good at that job, someone who was my leader at the time thought that maybe this person should lead the people that do this job. And so I moved into leadership very excited, but also extremely naive.

Not even what it took to become a leader. Just because you’re great at a role and a particular task doesn’t mean that you’re great at leading people. So I set out from that time to figure it out. And so one thing led to another. I went from being a program director over the forensic interviewers to into more of an executive role, a chief partner relations officer, and ultimately landed myself in a CEO seat of the Dallas Children’s Advocacy Center, which is the organization that I started my leadership journey at. And so what a way to start it and what a way to stop that transition being in that specific role. So it has been truly a journey.

 

TH: 

You know, it’s so interesting because I think you have been such a mentor to so many in all of those various phases. I was thinking about at the Urban Forum in which you announced that you were going to retire from your most current role. And I mean, folks were tearing up because they had really come to rely on your advice and guidance and support and all of those things, which is just touching and a testament to the way that you move through the world and work with folks. But I’m just curious about what has really grounded you as a leader in all of those spaces and places over that time.

 

IB: 

I have to say a couple of things. It is actually one of the things that you mentioned, it’s the people. It’s knowing that you’re not alone in this work. So everyone hears this saying and everyone believes the saying and I believe it to be true to a certain extent that leadership is lonely at the top. But when you are in this space in our world, in our field of the critical work that we do, mission driven work, you cannot do that work alone.

And when you are in the position to make several life-changing decisions for staff and that impacts clients, you certainly don’t want to do that alone. So grounding for me starts with really my faith. I’m a woman of faith. Anybody knows me know I’m a woman of faith, but then also it’s the community that I’ve built around myself and that I’ve hoped I’ve been able to pour in back into that community as much as it’s poured into me because you cannot survive this work out here by yourself. You can’t.

 

TH: 

This was one of the things that I want us to actually talk about, because I agree with that. I think that heading up any children’s advocacy center or child abuse agency or having a significant role within one, there’s a real weight of responsibility that comes with that. That it’s not to say other kinds of jobs don’t have it, but as you say, you’re making life changing decisions regularly. And can you just talk a little bit about how you thought about that as you were doing it up until about five minutes ago when you retired from your role at the Dallas Children’s Advocacy Center, but also because I think that the weightiness of that, people also can struggle with turning that off and enjoying their life outside of work. And I’m just interested in how you balance that, especially as leader of one of our very largest Children’s Advocacy Centers in the country.

 

IB: 

I will tell you, sometimes I did it well and sometimes I didn’t, to be perfectly honest. And I think that’s the beauty of it. When I think about our world, and I like how you said, our world is different. It is different. I don’t think a lot of people know this about me, but probably for about 18 months when I was working at CPS, I left, went into the corporate world and quickly came back. Cause I was like, is this what we’re talking about at the water coolers? Cause no.

Children are dying, I’m going back to save some lives. And so for me, when I really think about the weight of the work, I say it in this way, is mission work is hard and it’s heavy, but it doesn’t have to be deadly. And the reality is that is what we’re doing every day. We’re carrying this leadership under pressure.

You have to think about the staff. You have to think about raising money. You have to think about the clients. You have to think about the partners. You have this whole ecosystem of all of these different disciplines and different areas that’s depending on you and decisions you make. And those things will weigh on you. And it’s really about, again, making sure you have that community, but also being very mindful of the fact that the work is hard.

I think that’s one of the things that a lot of people don’t think about, Teresa. I didn’t think about it. You come into leadership and you see it from an outside and it looks very glamorized. But when you’re the one in the middle of the night, knowing that you have to deliver that news tomorrow, that’s going to break somebody’s heart, that’s going to be devastating to people, that stuff stays with you. And those are the things that help you to know that, okay, I got to be in this position.

I have to be able to strategically make decisions based on the information that I have. And I also have to know that sometimes I’ll get it right and sometimes I won’t. And if I don’t get it right and I recognize I didn’t get it right, then I apologize for that and I try to do better. I think that’s why I describe my leadership as imperfect. I have a spirit of perfection.

I have been raised and it had, I’m pretty sure many of the clinicians looking at this, I can tell me about your childhood and I’ll tell you why you’re like that. But I, I always have a need for every single thing to be perfect and in control and all of these different things. And what I’ve had to come to the realization is that this world, our ecosystem, it is not going to allow you to be perfect. And that is what is good about it. It is the fact that you have all these variety of disciplines and everyone coming together for this one common goal. And because you have all of the different disciplines, you’re going to have chaos. You’re going to have conflict. You’re going to have confrontation. And it’s because you can sit in that space and know that that is going to happen, that it gives you a better chance to address it and to be able to manage it. It is when you want to come to work and think I’m just going to come to work and everything’s going to be great. Or I’m going to come to work and I’m going to deal with this one thing. And when this one thing is over, it’s going to get better. I call it the when I fever. When I get through with this task, when I get through with this termination or this layout, things will get better. It’s not. The reality is this is the work. It is what we have to carry and we carry it well, making sure that we carry it with others and we carry it with responsibility. Carry it with thinking, I might not always get it right, but I’m going to make sure that I make a decision that is human centered. Everybody wants to that as a buzzword, but that really is how we have to lead. And sometimes leading from a human centered way is the thing that makes you feel more burdened because you’re going to think about what you impact. You got to think about the people that you lead that have lives that things are happening in their lives. And if you come to work thinking, okay, y’all just do the job.

Yeah, I need you to do the job, but I also need to know that you are human, that you have issues going on in your life. And so I need to make sure that when you do come here, that I’m pouring into you and that I’m supporting you in a way that you know I see you. And although I can’t fix your personal stuff, but I’m taking that into consideration when I’m asking you to carry this other weight over here.

 

TH: 

As you were talking, I was thinking about a couple of things, which is that, first of all, it is an incredible responsibility. You are not overstating the case about what this job really is, right? Day to day. On the other hand, there’s a blessing aspect of it that I feel very strongly about, which is that I know that no matter what my day is like, I put my head on the pillow at night and I know there’s some kid out there who got something that they needed because of this work that’s going on from all of us in our respective roles all across the country. And it’s not that that’s magic, right? That it makes up for everything when you’ve had a bad day, but you feel a sense of purpose from it that’s incredibly satisfying, I think. And I smiled when you talked about your corporate getaway because it was somebody who was kind of in that space right now. And they were saying, I just like, it all just feels so meaningless. And I was like, okay, I mean, you need to volunteer someplace or something to add that meaning to your life because I don’t know if I would enjoy work at all if I didn’t have that sense of like, this makes a difference what we’re doing.

 

IB:

I remember saying, looking at my husband, this was probably like the third day after I left DCAC and I was starting my retirement. I looked at him and I’m like, buddy, I don’t think this is going to work. He was like, what’s wrong? And I said to him, and not in a way of arrogance, because I love how you just put it. It is the gift that we have been given to be able to work in a space where you are helping. I’m not changing your life, but I’m helping you to change your life. I’m helping to keep children safer. And I said to him, will I ever do anything impactful again? And not from a, again, like, it’s about me. It is, I need to help someone. Literally yesterday, Teresa, I reached out to someone. I was like, okay, so put me on the board. I need to help people.

 

TH: 

I love it. You’re like, okay, right now I’m raising my hand.

 

IB: 

Put me on the board. I need to help. want to serve. This is what this season is about. It is not about coming home and sitting down. I’m certainly writing every day. I’m trying, I’m coaching, I’m speaking, I’m pouring into the people that are out there doing this work every day because I know what it feels like. I know the burden of it, but I know the blessing also. The problem is we sometimes get so bogged down by the burden.

We don’t think about the blessing. And my goal is to really help people to remember what a blessing it is to be able to, like you just said, lay your head on a pillow at night and know I made a difference today.

 

TH:

I’m curious, Irish, if you were talking to an emerging leader today, a young person who you could see they were a bright young thing that’s going to do well and whatever they do, and you think to yourself, I wish I had had X as leadership advice. I wish somebody had told me. I feel like I learned so many of my own leadership lessons the hard way. So what is it that you wish someone had maybe clued you into that you wouldn’t have had to learn by doing?

 

IB: 

Yeah, I will tell you what I’ve told my daughter when my daughter followed me into this space. And this is also what I spent my last 48 hours at DCAC meeting with middle management. And that question came up, like what advice would you give me? And I truly would say it in the sense of Teresa, when we’re in this space, it is really making sure as a young professional, that you understand the weight of the work, that you understand the weight of what you’re doing and the true value your skills bring to this space so that you can make sure you’re pointing to the mission, but the mission also pours back into you. So that way the healthiest organizations are when both of these things rise together. Because as young professionals, what I wish someone would have told me, is this is what I was doing. I was pouring, pouring, pouring. Like I must serve, serve, serve, serve. I must take care of all of the things, take care of, and not really pay close attention to my own professional development, my professional goals. And as young professionals right now, they really need to understand it because again, the scale tips this way, if the mission is advancing and you are not, but what we also see a lot is sometimes the scale tips this way, whether the employer or the employee is more so focused on what they can do and not serving the mission. It is with both of these things rise together that you will feel so much satisfaction in your career that it will be that thing that helps to sustain you over time. I wish someone would have told me that. No one told me that because we get into the self-martyr space if we’re not careful. And that can be dangerous to young professionals and to anyone really.

 

TH: 

That is such good advice about thinking about the balancing of those things because I do think that it’s easy to let that get out of whack and then as you say you start feeling like a martyr about it or being disgruntled because of it or whatever or worse yet taken advantage of in some way. You know I think that just paying attention to making sure you’re a good contributor and also making sure that you’re taking advantage of professional development opportunities and not neglecting those on the path. It’s just, it’s critical. I’m betting by now, as you’ve been reflecting on your own leadership and, your own leadership practice, you have come across in your time, some myths about leadership that you’re just like, that myth needs to die. That is not true. It’s just wrong, wrong, wrong. So I’m curious for you, what is it that you’re just like, no.

 

IB: 

Let me think. That’s a really good question. So leadership myths.

 

TH: 

Even just a hot take on leadership, we’re just like, no, that’s not how it is.

 

IB: 

So, well, this is probably where I’m a little bit different than a lot of other leaders. I think there is a myth in the past or traditional leadership that we hide things from people. And I just don’t believe that to be true. I think many of my team members, many of even my peers would say that I’m very transparent in my leadership.

I read this book when I was actually working in HR at another advocacy center. I read this book called Powerful by Patty McCord. Patty McCord is the chief human resource officer from Netflix when Netflix went through that whole change. And one of the things that she stands in there, she has a chapter about human seated leadership. She didn’t call it that, but she talks about grown people. She says grown people work here. And what that taught me is you give.

 

TH: 

I love that.

 

IB: 

You give people the information that they need in order to make the decision that’s best for them. Good news, bad news. You give them the information that they need in order to do that. And I think a lot of times as leaders, now there are certainly a balance. There are certain things that you can’t tell people from an HR, from a legal standpoint, and there are certain things that you probably shouldn’t tell them. But there are a lot of times where we can provide information for people in order for them to have more clarity around situations. We were extremely transparent about my transition. And I will say at the very beginning of it, one of the things that the board asked me and my response to them, because I put together this full transition plan, this is how we’re going to make the announcements, this is what you’re going to say, all these different things. And they asked me what would success look like? And what I said to them, success would look like me walking out, or me making the announcement and business goes back to usual. And that’s what happened. We made the announcement and because we did that, we brought them along every step of the way. We told them everything that was happening. We gave them clarity. We gave them information. And that last day when I walked out, the only person that was having a fit was me. You would have thought I was walking out of a funeral. I’m like, no way, no.

I had built that building and I knew that would be the hardest part for me. So my husband and my daughter met me to walk out the building with me. But do you know what everybody else was doing? They were doing their job. Everybody else, it was a normal day for them. To me, being so transparent in this process allowed us to create an environment where people felt safe, where they had the information that they needed. And I think sometimes as leaders, we try to hold our cards too close. Even if we make a mistake, we try to hold our cards too close. And that hurts us in the end, ultimately, because it hurts your team.

 

TH: 

I thought, because I was watching all the communication that went out externally about your transition and Lori coming in, I just thought it was beautifully handled. I have to just say, I just thought it seemed like such a beautiful, warm handoff and then just taking it forward. And that’s, you know, that’s the best legacy you can have is when it’s a smooth, seamless transition in that way. So, you know, well done you on that. I also wanted to talk to you a little about you alluded to it a minute ago, the multidisciplinary nature of our work and the fact that that does bring with it community, right? Which is a wonderful thing that every decision doesn’t just rest on you. You’ve got these colleagues to call on for their best thinking, but it’s also true. It’s a different kind of leadership when you are working with a whole bunch of people that are not under your direct authority in the same way. And so can you talk a little bit about how you thought about that, how you approach this, this role in which you’re influencing things, but you’re not, you know, saying, Mr. Police Chief, I really think what you need to do next is this and that. It’s very different.

 

IB: 

Yeah, I think it’s one of the things that a lot of people really don’t understand the value of it. I think that’s what helped me to lead better in the sense of I started out my leadership in this place of even though I was given the title of being on the forensic interview team, I was also working with the MDT at that time and that was so new to me.

And it was learning to lead through influence is what helped me to be able to lead in this space. Because what that does is it ties you to relationships. It ties you to building a foundation of relationships that allow you to trust an individual. So when you get in your MDT modes and you get into these different models, then that level and that foundation of trust is there. So when I need to have the hard conversation with you, when I need to say, hey, help me understand why you didn’t file on that case. And we can have a very, even sometimes tense conversation. But the reality is I know you care, you know I care. We’re fighting for the same goal. So we’re able to be able to move forward and keep the work moving forward. So when I think about our MDT model and anybody, you know me, anybody knows me, that was my job. I loved the MDT because what we know is truly in my heart of hearts, I don’t say it because I think it to be true. I say it because I know it to be true. When the MDT model is working effectively, then children thrive. Children are able to thrive and we can’t do this work alone. And what we also know is just the sure core of the model is going to breed all the conflict, all the different things. It’s massive.

Who said conflict is inevitable, but combat is optional. And so I used to always teach that to my MDT. And it is really that understanding that every single time when you sit in this space and as I think about the MDT, anytime I had to make a decision, even as a CEO, I had to think of if I’m gonna make this change of toilet tissue that’s in the bathroom.

How is law enforcement gonna respond to this? How is this gonna impact CPS? And so you have to constantly have that mind frame of what decisions I make today and how is it going to impact those that are also working within this system and that are dependent on me because I care about making sure that not only my staff, not only the 125 people I was responsible for, I needed to make sure the 250 plus people in the building had also what they needed. So you leave from a place of thinking, okay, how can I impact this person? How can I make their jobs easier? But that only comes when you have that foundation of trust.

 

TH: 

I think the other thing is if somebody hasn’t come up through the ranks and kind of the way that you’re describing and they might not have a background of working by leading by influence, it can be a real shock to the system, you know? And so I’m curious, you’ve just gone through a search process and all of that yourself, so you probably have some fresh insights on this. But if you were advising a board, for example, okay, you’re going to have lots of candidates for the CAC director position.

But what are you essentially looking for in leadership quality that’s unique to that role? What would you say?

 

IB: 

Really, it was what we just talked about. We talked about the tenured experience. We talked about the, for me, looking for someone, it was important that we had someone who had experience in the space already. Because you can teach someone, but it takes time. And you understand that because the model is so complex. But the primary thing I told them is that they’re looking for someone. And I said it exactly this way, that lives, eats and breathes collaboration.

If they don’t understand collaboration and if they think they can come and sit in this seat and make any decision they want and think that this is just my house, they will fail because they’re going to be rubbing up against friction and you’re not going to be able to continue to build a model that supports the children in the way the families need to be supported. And I told them, you have to have someone that understands every decision they’re making impacts someone. You talk about the stuff that rolls down hills, this is the stuff that rolls down hills. When I make a decision, it’s going to impact the partners that are housed with me, but it’s going to impact the 27 other law enforcement partners that are not housed with me. It’s going to impact the DAs, it’s going to impact medical, it’s going to impact all of these different people. And so you have to, when you’re sitting and looking for a CEO in our space, collaboration is your first characteristic. And I don’t care, everybody says I play nice in this game, that’s just not true.

 

TH: 

It’s like, what’s your actual history with playing nicely in the sandbox, right? I was thinking, you know, we’re in a hiring process ourselves and we often joke about the fact that everybody in interviews says that they can work in a fast-paced environment and we’re like, let’s talk to you in a year and see how you feel about it. What fast-paced actually meant.

 

IB: 

Exactly, exactly.

Your fast pace and my fast pace, two totally different things.

 

TH: 

Yes, absolutely. So, you know, the other thing, and you mentioned this in building and a capital campaign, I mean, these are monstrous projects to take on, but there are all kinds of systems change and systems transformations. And I’m curious about how you think about approaching that when what you’re not doing is just making a day to day decision, but you’re making a decision or a series of decisions that is really going to shape differently, the way that kids are served or the way that you’re interacting with your team partners or the physical plant that you’re in or all of those things. How have you approached that over time?

 

IB: 

So in a couple of different ways, one, knowing that I’m not going to have all the answers. I think that is the biggest thing is really bringing along the people who have the information that I need. The second thing I would tell you is knowing that I’m still not going to have all the answers when I need to make the decision. think that’s, I’m a processor, so I want all of the information. So what I’ve had to learn is bringing the people who are experts at what they do, but then also know that at the end of the day, have to move, keep the train moving. And we’re gonna have to make decisions based on the information that we have at the time. And then the third thing of that would be being ready to pivot as quickly as possible if we realize that we’re going down the wrong way. I think sometimes we, sometimes some people will get in a space and say, okay, well I made this decision and this is decision, we have to stick to it. Even when you’re like,

I should have did that. Or we probably need to change that because that’s not going as we wanted to. Being ready to pivot and communicating upfront. Here’s what we’re going to do. This is what we’re going to try. And then if that doesn’t work, then we’re going to go back to the drawing board and we’re going to readjust. So a lot of over communication during that time, but making sure that I’m doing those three things. That’s what’s gotten me through that space. Cause if you think about it, Teresa, when I came into this position, leading, like you said, one of the largest CACs in the world. I had no CEO experience. I was just as shocked as y’all was.

 

TH: 

I don’t think we were shocked. I think you were the one shocked.

 

IB: 

Okay, I’m ready. Let’s go. And it really was about, okay, hitting the ground running. Like you said, it’s a fast pace. You are sprinting. People can say all day long, this is a marathon. Yeah, it’s a long sprinting marathon. But it was then surrounding myself around people who knew the information that I didn’t know. And then being able to move us forward, communicating and pivoting.

I’ve made some great hires, I’ve made some bad hires. I’ve made some good policies, I’ve made some bad policies. And it’s being able to pivot when those things aren’t working out and then being able to keep moving forward.

 

TH: 

You know, as you’re talking, one of the things that I think keeps coming up is just that there’s this sort of self-acceptance about making mistakes and just moving on from it, you know, which I really appreciate because I do think people tend to just really beat themselves up when they make a mistake or when something doesn’t go the way that they expected it to. And I just love this thought where you’re just like, just acknowledge it. We’re imperfect.

We can only do what we do with the information we have. If it goes sideways, we’re going to pivot and do something else. We’re not going to lock in on that and stay stuck. Where do you think that comes from? How did you learn to do that?

 

IB: 

I think it’s being, probably being a parent, to be perfectly honest. No one’s ever asked me this question, but I actually would think it was from being a parent. Because what I think we have a tendency to do is be more generous to others than we are to ourselves. So for me, I always wanted my children to be okay with making mistakes because I wanted them to be able to communicate with me and my husband and be able to say, hey mom, hey dad, I messed up. And then we figure it out from there. What I didn’t want them to feel was isolated or we had this such high expectation of perfection that they couldn’t mess up. And I think the problem with us is we’ll extend grace to others that we won’t give to ourselves.

When I took this job, remember that we did a lot of assessments. in my interview process, one of my board members said, so according to your test results, you have a very extreme standard of perfection. And my concern is that you’re going to hold others to that same standard. I’ve never heard that before. I never thought about it.

But it really was going into the job, knowing that this was something that I needed to be careful about. I also didn’t always get it right because I started out doing the things and I would have to rein myself back in, but it was intentionality around saying, okay.

I’m not getting this right. I’m expecting them to do something from a perfect standpoint. And then they’re going to hide the thing from me, right? Or they’re not going to feel like they can tell me. So let me now extend this grace to you to say, can do it however you need to. If you mess up, let’s figure it out together. And then it made me start to internalize that for myself because I am that person that when I first started, my gosh, and this was in leadership period. I did not want to make mistakes.

My predecessor knows I would march into his office and be like, God, I just messed up the world. And he will be like, get it together.

Yeah, but we do it all the time. We really want to do everything right. But I don’t like to say being a great leader. Being a better leader is when you understand and recognize that you are an imperfect leader. Nobody is perfect. And the sooner you can sit in that space and give yourself the grace that you extend to others, the more empowering it will be for you as a leader.

 

TH: 

I want to talk about this great leader thing because, know, speaking of myths, I think that, you know what I mean, you know what I’m heading with this. I do think there is this myth that there are these magical, iconic leaders out there who never make any mistakes and then there’s the rest of us, you know? And so how do you think about that? Because I do feel like the media plays into this. They select some small handful of people and they make whatever their leadership processes are sound very magical and think it can be daunting to young leaders especially because I think how could I ever live up to that? So tell me a little bit about that because the way you reacted to that great leader thing made me think that maybe you have a little bit of skepticism about great leaders as well.

 

IB: 

Yeah, I think, and here’s the thing, I think if you sit across from many of those leaders personally, they will tell you they’re not a great leader. It is what society portrays as great leadership that we then impart and put on ourselves. We try to hold this mantle of everything is so perfect and everything is so great and we must be this stoic person. But at the end of the day, for me, I just don’t think there is a thing. And like you said, talking about myths, I don’t think there is a thing as great leadership. And if it is, a great leader is someone who intentionally is trying to make sure that they are getting better on a daily basis. And by that, it means that they acknowledge the great and they acknowledge the bad and that they figure it out and they have an intentionality about growing. You know what, that’s what a great leader is.

Someone who wants to grow. again, I don’t even think there’s a such thing. Like, ugh. Because I think that’s the thing that stresses so many other leaders out because they’re like, how do I live up to that? And that’s why I think it’s important that people like you and people like me, like we sit in that space and say, hey, I made some bad hires. Hey, I made some bad hires. I just did some things that I probably should have thought about. I wish I would have said that differently.

I wish I would have reacted in this way differently. It is when we can sit in that space and normalize that this is what leadership is. And it’s not staying there. It’s saying, Hey, I did this thing, but my goal is to get better. My goal is to lead well and to lead better than what I’m doing. So here’s what I’m doing to change that. You can’t just say, Hey, I did this thing and I’m done. You can’t do that thing. You got to say, I did this thing over here.

Here’s what I did to correct it. And here’s what I’m going to try to do differently next time. It is when we are that vulnerable that I think that the younger leaders will see and say, okay, this is not as daunting as I thought it could be. I’m not in this space where I have to know all the answers. I have to be perfect. I can’t make mistakes. This is a place where I am still human and I need you to be more human in that leadership position than you are in any other role.

You need to be so human because again, not only are you to carry the mantle of the mission, but you’re helping to carry the mantle of the people that are leaning on you and then looking to you for guidance and for response and for all of the different things that they need in order to be more effective at their job. You have to think about it from both of those places and you need to be as human as possible in order to do that.

 

TH:

I think that it keeps people from thinking that they can be leaders if the bar is perfection. You know, I think especially anybody that’s humble or has any humility at all, they think, oh, I could never, you know, fill in the blank. But you’re like, actually, that humility will serve you well in this role because I hate to use the word grounded again, but it keeps you grounded about the fact that every decision you make won’t be the most brilliant one you’ve ever made. You know, there are, as you say, hires you’re like, how did I ever do that? Or decisions, how did I ever decide that was a good idea to try that? You know, whatever, because it’s a process of learning. And I think if young and emerging leaders really knew that it is this journey and it’s not some endpoint destination that you’re going to arrive at, it might feel easier to see oneself as a leader.

 

IB: 

Exactly. Being a leader that is intentional about growth is a leader that’ll go far. Even after 30 years in the space, 20 years in leadership, I’m still literally reading. I’m rereading Radical Kanda right now. Like I’m still learning. I just recommend it Powerful to somebody. Actually, I should probably get some money from her because I recommend it so much.

But it is about like there’s never a stop to it. And if you understand there’s never a stop to it, then like you said, it won’t be so intimidating to start.

 

TH: 

That’s right. When you think about our field and you think about leadership within it, let’s imagine that we fast forward 10 years from now. What are you hoping that you see? Now, maybe seeing it from a beach on Hawaii or something, but what are you hoping that you see?

 

IB: 

Oh my gosh, from this space. I wish I have so many dreams for the CAC space and that may sound weird because it’s like, well, you just left the CAC space. But I have so many dreams from this understanding of first for the world to understand because we’re still fighting the fight, Teresa, really ensuring that the community understands that the biggest threat is in the household at times. Someone that the child knows and loves. And I know a lot of people don’t want to believe that, but for me, just looking at this on a worldwide scale is that the world rallies around their CACs, that every community member knows and understands and supports the fact that there is a CAC in their area that’s serving these children and that they’re actively getting in.

I feel like when you talk about domestic violence, I feel like it has a higher weight internationally where people want to get involved sometimes with that. And I feel like sometimes people shy away from child abuse because you don’t want to think that it happens. I need us to be just as high up on that mantle and have people rallying around this cause like the same way that they do any other cause and actually even more. My goal is to see you on the Today Show one day, like seriously see you on the Today Show talking about this issue around the world and for people to know that actually I can do something about it. I don’t have to be afraid. I think we’ve done, we’ve come light years from when I was a forensic interviewer, when I first started in this space.

And I also am excited about where we’re headed in this next 10 years.

 

TH: 

So now let’s speak about the future for you. What is next for you aside from coming to our leadership conference and doing a beautiful job? And I see that others have followed our lead or maybe it’s the other way around. We followed their lead, but I see that you’re speaking more these days.

 

IB: 

Yes, you were the first to come for me and then I have several other, probably have about six others right now. I will say it is what my husband and I talked about because we prayed about this. We prayed about this a long time before I left and before we made the announcement and the final decision. And we knew it wasn’t just walking away from this space. It was more so about moving towards this next season.

And the next season allows me to do exactly this. It burns my heart and my soul when I know someone is tired, when I know someone is on the brink of giving up and walking away from this work. Sometimes it’s time for people, they get a different sequence of life. But when I think about the new, the younger generation coming in,

People are concerned about AI and AI taking away jobs. AI can’t take away our job, but yet we can see the decline of people majoring in social services. So how can I bring an excitement and an understanding that these roles have so much value and you can literally help to change the lives. You can change the trajectory of someone’s future when you’re sitting in all of the seats, not just the leadership seats, but every single seat that it takes in our world. And so for me, it is what can I do? What is my part that I can do in order to one, pour into the person that’s doing the work and then also just being a woman and being even a woman of color. How can I also ensure that I’m helping these leaders, any leader under pressure? Because this is what this is gonna be different. Corporate, you have profits. We have lives we’re concerned about. So how do I help you manage that pressure in a way that this job doesn’t burn you out? That you don’t say, know what, this is too high risk for me. I don’t want anything to do with it. I need you to be here and I need you to be equipped. And so in this next season, it is really figuring out how can I go about helping people to just the sustainability, just stay in the work and not only stay in the work, but I need you to thrive in the work.

 

TH: 

You know, when you were saying that, that led me to another question. And you know, I wish I could just talk to all day, but I do have a couple of more questions. And the first one was just based on what we were just talking about. Someone asked me this question a while back and I was sort of reflecting on it. You know, for folks who have been in the work for a while, there is kind of, I feel like in sort of CAC and child abuse intervention in general, there are those people who bounce out of it very early. And then there’s this group of people who make a career out of it.

And I feel like we’ve never paid enough attention to those who do. They’re able to be in it a long time and to be healthy in it. What is it that makes that possible? And I’m curious, as you’ve reflected on your own career, where you did this work as a CPS investigator, forensic interviewer, like worked your way all, had whole career in this stressful, as you say, work. What do you think was critical to keeping you in the work, but not just in the work, in the work and healthy in the work?

 

IB: 

Yeah, I think a couple of things. One, I knew very early on that child abuse was my thing. I knew it. So as a person, my core belief is every child should be safe in their homes. The reality is they’re not. And that’s why our work exists. And so I came into the space, even as a CPS worker, believing that. So that’s what got me in this space. So I think that’s critical is for someone, your long-term sustainability starts with making sure you’re aligned with something that is true to your belief. So for some people it’s homelessness, for some people it’s domestic violence, for some people it’s animals. So it’s really making sure that you’re aligned to that. Then the second thing I would say is really making sure that I then understood the value that I brought. So I knew my superpower and I aligned my superpower with the needs of the organization. And because I was able to do that in a way that was more strategic, that helped me feel fulfilled. I got to go to work every day and do the thing that I really enjoyed doing and I could see the impact that I was making. So I think what happens is sometimes people it cut it a little bit shorter because one, they got into the space and they’re like, I knew I was following somebody else and this is not my thing. But then also you have people that get into the space and they know, okay, this is where I belong and this is where I’m going to root myself in. And then I’m just going to grow from there. And you got to make sure that you’re honest with yourself. I applaud the people that come and say, not for me. I remember many of forensic interviewers, remember many of partners that have came through, got put into, detectives got put into the child abuse, it was like, ah, I want out.

Like I applaud those people for knowing that this is not the thing that’s gonna continue to pour into me and that I can pour into effectively. Because the worst thing you want is someone on the vine that has died. And I know that’s a morbid way to say it, but is on the vine, but they’re not contributing.

It has sucked the life out of them. We’ve all seen it. We want people that know that this is their thing. And when you know that this is your thing, and it’s not even about passion, it’s more about belief. What is the thing that keeps you up at night? Child abuse has always kept me up at night. I’m going to tell a little bit more about why that is also a thing for me at the conference. But child abuse has always been my thing.

That’s what’s kept me here. Now, I will say to you, Teresa, I haven’t always done it in a healthy way. When I was over our partners, the chief partner relations officer, I was responsible for facilitating all of our child death, child mortality. And so we would have our meeting with the detectives, the ME, he would have the autopsy photos up and blah, blah, blah. And I will never forget. I was going through this phase and I didn’t even know what was wrong.

And the sergeant, his name was Reggie, Sergeant Matthews, sent me a text and said, how are you eating your lunch? We’re looking at autopsy photos of this baby on the screen. And I was like, well, cause I got to eat in the moment. And then I went for you. It hit me like a ton of bricks when I got home. I’m like, so yeah, I shouldn’t have been able to do that. And I realized that I myself was going through a burnout phase.

I had to be very intentional about, okay, so where am I at? What are we going to do? And how do we move forward? it is, and having someone around you that close enough to you to say, I see something is wrong. And we do, you have to have that community of people. But I did, was sitting there eating a lunch, eating a salad. And it was, it just jarred me back into reality. So I haven’t always done it in a great way. I think also that’s a part of it. There will be a phase in your career where you might feel a little bit more burned out. The question is, what are you going to do with it? Has the light completely gone out? Is the light just gone or is the light just a little bit dim and you just need to just fire it back up? Sometimes that requires rest. Sometimes that requires having something outside of the job.

That’s one mistake I will tell you I made when I took on the CEO role. When I took on the president and CEO role, everything came about this position. For the past five years, nothing else mattered. I took care of my family. I was there physically, but many of my families will tell you I was not there mentally.

And what I realized is that I just stopped doing the things that I enjoy. I love reading. I love working out. I stopped doing all of those things. Teresa, I gained 25 pounds in my last year at DCAC.

It’s stress and mental health.

But it was because I stopped once I took on a job, I used to work out all the time and I just stopped because I was initially at the very beginning in this space of when I get this thing done, when I finish this, I got to go ahead and start early. And so that’s what I would tell young leaders, seasoned leaders, make sure you have that other thing that you love because the work is going to be never ending.

Make sure you have that thing that you love. And although I gained the weight in this last year, that was due to menopause. But when I realized this and I knew I was going to retire, I started shifting like two and a half years ago to go back and say, okay, what are the things that I love? What are the things that I want to do? Because you’ll leave or you will separate from this and your whole identity will be all wrapped up into this job.

And if you don’t have something else, you’ll find yourself back in the workplace because you’re trying to figure out like, who am I? Who am I without this title? And leaving the title behind was easier than stripping away the identity. This is 30, you’re looking at 33, 34 years in this space. It’s all that I’ve ever done. And so I wake up and I’m like, okay, so who am I if I’m not doing this thing?

What does this new me look like? Who am I becoming? But it is making sure that while you’re in that space, you still have the things that bring you joy. The activities, the creativeness, you have to have that because those are the things that would attribute and lead to more burnout quicker because you’re only doing this one thing over here and you’re not doing anything that you love. It’s just pouring, pouring, pouring with nothing else in return.

 

TH: 

Irish, as you were talking, was thinking, 2025 was a year where I was like, good riddance to bad rubbish 2025, because it was just like constant change, constant turmoil, constant chaos. And it got near the holidays. And I’m a huge holiday person. I’m just like a nut job about the holidays normally. And I wasn’t really feeling it, but I just thought, I’m going to push through, because I’ve got to be human first.

You know, it cannot just be crisis management. It also has to be sending my elderly relatives their Christmas card, which they look forward to, you know, making the phone calls I need to make, decorating the tree, like all the things. And I just really, I really believe what you’re saying about that, that that’s vital to your own health and ability to continue is that you realize that these other things are frankly what allow you to keep going and dealing with the daily chaos and all of that.

Well, Irish, is there anything else that I should have asked you and didn’t or anything else you wanted to make sure we talked about today?

 

IB: 

I just am so appreciative of this work. Although, again, I’m not seeing it on a day-to-day basis, just to be able to cheer you all on from afar is just the biggest honor for me right now. It is knowing that this CAC model is what it is because of the network that we have, the network that you’ve built, and the example that you set for us, NCA sets for us. I’m just eternally grateful.

I wouldn’t be here where I am today without the community of all of the CACs, of all of the work that you’ve done. Like no one CAC could have gotten to where they are today without the community efforts that everyone has put in to get us here. And so I’m just grateful for that. And I wouldn’t, in the words of Maya Angelou, I wouldn’t take nothing for my journey now.

 

TH: 

Well, Irish, we’re not letting you go very far. And I will personally see you very soon at Leadership Conference. We’re grateful for your leadership. I’m grateful for your candor and honesty about what this leadership journey actually is. And I know it is a blessing to all those who are going to hear it. So thank you so much and come back any time.

 

IB: 

Thank you for having me.

 

TH: 

Thanks joining us on One in Ten. If you like this episode, please like and subscribe. And for more information about this or any of our other episodes, please visit our podcast website at OneInTenPodcast.org.