Growing Up Online: Addressing Child Sextortion, with Katie Connell

Season 5, Episode 5

“Growing Up Online: Addressing Child Sextortion,” with Katie Connell

[Intro music begins]

[Intro]

Teresa Huizar:
Hi, I’m Teresa Huizar, your host of One in Ten. In today’s episode, “Growing Up Online: Addressing Child Sextortion,” I speak with Katie Connell. Katie is unit chief of the Child Victim Services Unit at the FBI. Online exploitation of children is sadly not a new phenomenon or topic. But what is new is the dramatic growth of sextortion cases.

These cases—whether fueled by financial, sexual, or revenge motives—trade on children and youth’s fear that nude or sexual images of them will be shared if they don’t meet offenders’ demands for money or more images. Tragically, the fear, shame, and stigma that victims feel has resulted in isolation, further exploitation, and even suicide.

How do we prevent sextortion from happening in the first place? And if it does happen, what can we do in child abuse professionals to respond effectively and with compassion? Whether you work with children, have children, or both, you’re not going to want to miss this episode. Take a listen.

[1:21] Teresa Huizar:
Hi Katie. Welcome to One in Ten.

Katie Connell:
Hi, Teresa. How are you?

Teresa Huizar:
I am great. Here we have a day in D.C. in the spring where it’s, I don’t know, almost 80 degrees, so I’m doing really, really well. So for our listeners who may not have met you before, even though I feel like we’ve known each other a hundred years, can you just start by telling them a little bit about how you came to this work?

How did you come to work for the FBI doing what you?

Katie Connell:
Yeah, sure. I went to school for social work, went to Michigan State, and then got my master’s at Wayne State.

First job out was in a family agency that paid me $17,300. Much to my father’s dismay, right?

Teresa Huizar:
Oh, dear. [Laughter]

Katie Connell:
Yeah. Yep. And then from there I went into—I was in medical social work for a while, which I absolutely loved. And then I worked for a private psychiatric facility, which was not my favorite job.

Teresa Huizar:
Mmm.

Katie Connell:
And then I had a private practice for a while, and then I ended up landing with our Child Advocacy Center here in Michigan that was opening its doors in 1996. My kids were still small. And so they were looking for a forensic interviewer, and I said, “I can do that.” I had no idea what that was. And—

Teresa Huizar:
Neither did anybody else in 1996, just so you know. [Laughter]

Katie Connell:
Yep. Yep.

Read some books, read, you know, I had Deb Poole’s book.

Teresa Huizar:
Yeah.

Katie Connell:
I had some other books and got done reading and thought, “I can do this,” and actually went to the first training that APSAC ever put on, and it was here in the state of Michigan. Fifty people from the different states, and I was the one from Michigan. And I actually met Kim Poyer, who’s now at the bureau, who’s my boss, my section chief, but we remained really close friends. And she came into the bureau in 2001, and then a couple days later, one of my, you know, other colleagues, Martha Finnegan came in.

And Kim had said, “Hey, I want you to come on and help us do trainings.” And so I started doing trainings with them in 2001 out in Indian country, providing weeklong interviewing classes for agents and TFOs [task force officers]. Because they didn’t have any interviewers, right? And they’re interviewing victims. And then I came on full-time at the bureau in 2004. Then, you know, became supervisor of our Child Victim Services Unit, and now I’m the unit chief for our Child Victim Services Unit.

And, you know, three of us in 2001, and now we are at 24 CAFIs (child and adolescent forensic interviewers), three supervisors, and myself. So I’m super excited about the growth of that program.

[3:40] Teresa Huizar:
It has been amazing growth and development, and so needed and so good to see.

You know, I think for people who might not be as familiar with, like what is the difference in the kinds of cases the FBI would get versus other law enforcement? Knowing that some cases have both, but can you just talk a little bit about what types of cases would your unit see?

Katie Connell:
Yeah, again, great question. We get that a lot. And I think the difference is we are always looking to say in our cases: Do we have a federal nexus? And when we say yes, what does that look like? And I think when Kim came in the bureau and Martha came in the bureau, and then I came on, we had just developed our—what we called the Innocent Images program. And that was the program that was starting to look at, you know, what then was called child pornography and now we call CSAM, child sexual abuse material. And I think when they started that program, they didn’t realize they’d have victims that they would have to interview, especially small children, young children, minors, whatever it might be.

So that federal nexus is, is if somebody is a possessor or a producer, distributor of CSAM, that’s crossing, technically, state lines if you’re using technology for that. So that’s where the federal piece comes in. Plus, it’s a federal crime to produce and distribute that. So, other crimes obviously can be—well, kidnappings aren’t. And this is the other thing, people think kidnappings are always federal, and they’re really not. Unless somebody was taken across state lines. But the FBI helps and provides us a lot of resources in kidnapping crimes. But you know, even at that time too, it was perpetrators traveling across state lines, enticement, things like that—

Teresa Huizar:
Mmm.

Katie Connell:
— caused it to have a federal nexus.

[5:15] Teresa Huizar:
You know, it’s so interesting. Every time you keep talking about a different area, I think, oh my goodness, that would make a whole podcast episode in and of itself. [Laughter]

But the reason that I reached out to you is, you and I got talking in a meeting about sextortion.

Katie Connell:
Mmm-hmm.

Teresa Huizar:
And I just thought this is an area that is exploding and I think people don’t know enough about it.

And, you know, we need to learn more as child abuse professionals. So can you, first of all, for—I know people have read newspaper reports.

Katie Connell:
Mmm-hmm.

Teresa Huizar:
But just in your own words, like, what is sextortion? What makes it different from other forms of online exploitation of children?

Katie Connell:
Right. Sure.

And it was kind of interesting. It was a term that was coined in a federal case that we had several years ago by an agent. And really what that was looking like is, you know, you have our kids online and then they would be—maybe they’d be in a chat room or, you know, video chatting with somebody, or had sent images of themselves that were egregious in some manner. And then the next thing that would happen is, what you would see is. they’d get an email or a text from this person they had sent images or been in a room or they recorded, and say: Listen, I have these images of you. If you don’t send me more or do more—what we would call, you know—live shows or do something on camera for me, I’m going to send these to everybody in your Facebook. Or everybody in your Snapchat now. Or Instagram.

And they will do that. And what they’ll do is, they may have come in to the Instagram, their social media, by another, like a surreptitious, same age, you know, persona. And so, you know, and most of the kids today, nothing’s private. They go ahead and just accept because they want as many followers as possible.

And that person now, that subject, has access to those things. And they’ll send it maybe to one or two of their friends and screen capture it to show they sent that. So it’s a combination of sexual exploitation and extortion, and that’s where that term “sextortion” came from.

Sometimes it’s for money, you know, so it could be that way, too.

[7:09] Teresa Huizar:
Yeah, I was going to say that it seems like there could be several ways in which the child or youth is extorted, right?

Katie Connell:
Yes.

Teresa Huizar:
Money is one.

Katie Connell:
Mm-hmm.

Teresa Huizar:
But the other is just threatening this humiliation. You know, “your family will see this,” “your friends will see this,”—

Katie Connell:
Yes.

Teresa Huizar:
—whatever, in order to—would you say to generate more content? Is that sometimes

Katie Connell:
Yep. Yep.

Teresa Huizar:
the purpose of it?

Katie Connell:
Yeah, absolutely. To generate more content for that subject. … We have a couple significantly large financial extortion cases, and these are out in the media. We’ve been doing public service announcements to, you know, let parents know, let kids know, if this is happening to you, where—and then that element. The subjects are coming back and saying, “You owe me $500, and then I won’t go ahead,” or a thousand dollars, whatever it might be, “and then I won’t send these to anyone.” So then kids panic: “How do I get money to do this?” And so then they just keep sending and—yeah. So, it is. It’s for more content.

You know, on the financial sextortion, it’s a little interesting. We’re trying to look at the mindset of those subjects and say,–

Teresa Huizar:
Mmm.

Katie Connell:
—is it more, is it really the sexual content or is there a control manipulation issue—

Teresa Huizar:
Oh, interesting.

Katie Connell:
—for these individuals? Right? And the money con—they’re making money off of this. So in the financial sextortion, I don’t necessarily think it’s for sexual gain, where we have seen that in the traditional predator, right?

Teresa Huizar:
Mm-hmm.

Katie Connell:
And so, yeah, it’s a little bit of dynamics, but still, at the end of the day, the same effects for our victims.

To your point of that humiliation, embarrassment, where we’re seeing a high suicide rate in these cases, and that’s the huge concern we’re having.

[8:37] Teresa Huizar:
Oh, it’s just—that part of it’s so terrifying. I mean, it seems like there are kind of three or more, maybe, different types of cases that you’re describing. Those where there’s at least some financial element, even if that’s not necessarily the main motivator, there’s a request for money.

Katie Connell:
Mmm.

Teresa Huizar:
Then there’s this piece that seems to not be as money driven, but it’s about trying to either generate content or, or possibly something else. And then there’s this piece of it that, you know, with adults, we would call revenge porn or something like that.

Katie Connell:
Yes.

Teresa Huizar:
Where you may have someone who’s actually trying to be spiteful or get back at someone through the use of images that may have even been consensually shared initially. Or not necessarily maybe even same age, maybe not even something that’s another adult somewhere pretending to be a child, but …

Katie Connell:
Yeah, absolutely on the revenge porn.

Teresa Huizar:
Yeah.

Katie Connell:
A lot with adults, to your point. But also, same thing, you know: Your high school, two same-age, they consensually sent pictures or images to each other. And now there’s a breakup, and something gets sent to maybe the football team or the soccer, you know, other individuals and—yeah, absolutely.

[9:43] Teresa Huizar:
Well, we’ll unpack some of that in a minute. Because I think that this must make your job and that of all the CAFIs and special agents more challenging when you’re dealing with such—you know, trying to tease out, you know, kind of all the different reasons that might be happening and what that means for a case.

But I’m wondering what you believe—you know, the internet has been around for a while now. So it’s not—I mean, the internet certainly amplified all of this, but that’s not the only way it became amplified. And I’m just wondering, you know, in the media they’ve reported out this explosion of growth in cases and those kinds of things, which I want you to talk about, but also, what do you think is fueling that growth?

Because the percentage increases, when you told me this, I was just astounded.

Katie Connell:
Mm-hmm. And it has. These cases—like, to your point, the explosion. Some of our sextortion cases, I mean, it can have well over a thousand victims and upwards to five, six thousand victims. And it is very difficult to say, how in the world do you have anybody have the manpower to investigate all of those?

Which becomes a dilemma, right? Technically, victims of a federal crime are afforded rights and need rights and services and support. And so it really has been a tough dynamic in the bureau. You talk to probably anybody that’s working it, to include me, to say we don’t have enough personnel. The agents to say we’re overwhelmed. Locals now I’m hearing it.

You know, I heard from an advocacy center the other day that they’re on a three- to four-week wait for interviews because we’re sending—

Teresa Huizar:
Wow.

Katie Connell:
—cases to them with our MOU [memorandum of understanding] and our partner[ship].

Teresa Huizar:
Right.

Katie Connell:
So I mean, to your point of what’s fueling this, I mean I think what we see is this generation that has just grown up with nothing but the internet and social media.

Teresa Huizar:
Mm-hmm.

Katie Connell:
Right? Such a difference than generations 10, 15 years ago. And I think that the desensitization of material, where those boundaries are, have really had an impact for these victims.

I also think, you know, you have our kids on there that maybe their self-esteem is isn’t so great. Or they’re having some mental health concerns. Or things at home aren’t good. They get on the internet and find that validation. They find their group that supports them. Even though, again, for us at our, in our age group, it’s tough to imagine that. That’s where they’re getting their validation. And so sometimes it’s that acceptance of saying,”All right, I’ll send a couple, and I’m making sure that person that I have a relationship with, even though it’s all online, they’re still going to maintain that relationship with me.”

[12:13] Teresa Huizar:
You know, it’s so interesting that you’re saying that because I think it’s an important dynamic that you’re noting, which is if what you consider to be your main social support is online—

Katie Connell:
Mm-hmm.

Teresa Huizar:
—then it’s devastating to you when someone says, “I’ll share these pictures,” whereas no one will want any intimate pictures shared, that sort of thing. But if your whole life isn’t lived online and as you get older, you’re sort of like, “Well, I guess I’m going to have to email my friends and tell them they’re going to get pictures that I hope they don’t get.”

And you know, I mean, you just wouldn’t have the same reaction to that, even though it would be very embarrassing and terrible and all of that. And so I think you are really noting something about, you know, the special vulnerability that kids and youth now have because their lives are lived basically online very heavily, you know?

Katie Connell:
Yeah.

[13:00] Teresa Huizar:
So, talk to us a little bit about, you know, who are the offenders in these cases? Like what kind of pervert is doing this? Because that’s sort of like—

Katie Connell:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
—you know what I’m saying? Like five thousand victims, a thousand victims. It’s just so malicious.

Katie Connell:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
You know?

Katie Connell:
It’s interesting. So the bureau and then NCMEC and a couple other agencies—I think Thorn—out there have done some, you know, research where the studies of looking at how the case is and who’s in here. And I don’t have it in front of me, but actually it is a little surprising that the average age for the subject is like between early 20s and mid 30s was the norm of—

Teresa Huizar:
That’s interesting.

Katie Connell:
—yeah, it is interesting. As I said, I wish I had it in front of me. It’s individuals sometimes that, I mean, obviously have a lot of time to be able to do this. They’re very organized, like we have traditionally seen with predators and their collections that they have with CSAM. So they’re very organized a lot of times. I think what’s changed in the last five years that we’re seeing too is, perpetrators will say, “Listen, if I … if I don’t get something from one, I’ll move on to the next.” Because there’s so much content out there online. Where historically years ago we used to say, like, “If your picture’s out on the internet, you’re never going to get it back.”

Now, unfortunately, and in a sad statement to this, is there’s so much content out there that if, if kids have put things out there, good chance it’s going to get buried.

Teresa Huizar:
Mmm.

Katie Connell:
It’s still there. It’s not necessarily going away. But it’ll probably get buried with all the other thousands of images that are being shared, and that’s not good either, right?

[14:35] Teresa Huizar:
Oh, that’s so interesting because on the one hand, any individual child might not have quite as many worries about it sort of living on in that way, because as you say, it’ll be buried by new content. But how tragic—

Katie Connell:
Right.

Teresa Huizar:
—that there’s that much content to begin with.

Katie Connell:
You know, it is. And again, I think, when you talk about that vulnerability too, you know, look at brain development for our kids’. Brains don’t fully develop till mid 20s. Also makes them so vulnerable to that decision making as we know the part of our brain that makes sound decisions, reasoning decisions, that that develops last. So I think put that in there and then the self-blame where that’s, as I said, where you get that high concern of the suicide and how do we reach out to these kids to let them know—like. this is not life ending. Just tell somebody. Tell your parents, tell a teacher, tell whoever. Right? I think that’s what we’re just trying to message out.

[15:27] Teresa Huizar:
I think that’s such an important message because it certainly feels, you know, hugely humiliating and shaming to these kids in that moment.

Katie Connell:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
I mean, of course. And kids, you know, could be really mean to each other, so if somebody does send it to the whole football team or something like that, it’s not to say there’s not going to be some misbehavior or bullying as a part of that. But it’s also not your whole life either and not worth your life.

[15:54]
Can you just talk a little bit about these victims? How are they getting targeted? You know, is there a sort of usual age range that we need to be particularly concerned about or you know, just demographics in terms of what you’re seeing in cases coming in?

Katie Connell:
Yeah. Things that we’ve looked at and it kind of, it’s coincided with NCMEC also.

I mean, you know, average age 13, 14. It tends to be our teenagers there. But I will tell you, you know, I interviewed about a year ago, my victim, she was 8. You know. Eight years ago.

Teresa Huizar:
Oh my God.

Katie Connell:
And so, they’re being targeted everywhere.

And we just recently also collected a lot of data. We haven’t put it all together as to which platforms were being used—

Teresa Huizar:
Mmm. Interesting.

Katie Connell:
—by, yeah. And so that’s going to be interesting. But I think it’s anything that it’s a platform on the internet, whether that’s the gaming platforms, the social media platforms.

Teresa Huizar:
Mm-hmm.

Katie Connell:
I will say for our teens, the majority is in the, the social media platforms.

Teresa Huizar:
Yeah.

Katie Connell:
And it doesn’t matter which one it is. YouTube, the young ones can be watching—we had one recently where they’re watching online games being played, and then an address will pop up, like, you know, just a random address. And if kids click on that, it takes them into chat rooms or takes them into other places. And then they just, again, because of that brain developmentand having that lack. of consequence. You know, “what happens if I do this or don’t do this?” They just feel compelled to … they can’t get themselves out of them. They feel compelled to answer whatever that person’s asking them, and it’s just—yeah, it’s very difficult.

[17:20] Teresa Huizar:
You know, one of the things that you brought up—because I think we are used to as child abuse professionals, seeing more girls and boys, you know, come in through the door, disclose abuse, all those things.

And yet this seems to be an area where boys are—I don’t know if they’re being more targeted or if they’re reacting differently or more intensively, because you were talking about the sort of rash of suicides. Can you just talk a little bit about sort of what you’re seeing as it relates to boys specifically?

Katie Connell:
Yeah. You know, I think to your point, we’ve always seen historically, boys seem to be … they’re our population that just don’t disclose as readily as girls, right?

Teresa Huizar:
Mm-hmm.

Katie Connell:
And I think the element for boys for me is—this is anecdotally I say—is that when you add in, you know that maybe the subject is the same sex. So then you have that concern of, oh my gosh, you know, my family, my friends—

Teresa Huizar:
Right.

Katie Connell:
—are going to think differently of me. You know, a lot of our boy ones that are targeted, it actually is usually a persona that’s age-appropriate girl. Right. And then they send—

Teresa Huizar:
That’s interesting.

Katie Connell:
Mm-hmm. And then they send pictures. But then they find out from us, when we come knocking, that it’s really, uh, you know, 30-something-year-old male on the other side, and it’s just that stigma for them sometimes.

Teresa Huizar:
Mmm-mmm.

Katie Connell:
Or we might have kids, right, that are in chat rooms that are looking for support for an alternative lifestyle, but don’t—they’re not ready to share that with their family. And now again, we’ve got the evidence before, perhaps a disclosure. And not that we as the FBI would ever, you know, share that kind of information with parents that, you know, maybe this was an alternative situation—we wouldn’t do that. You’ve got to figure out how to, you know, make sure our victim’s safe and protect them also from that type of worry, that “I’m not ready to share this.”

Teresa Huizar:
That they’re going to be outed in some way.

Katie Connell:
Yeah, yeah. And it’s just a fine line. And so, I think we tend to see that with the boys more, that they just have so much more self-blame on that and that stigma of having this happen.

[19:19] Teresa Huizar:
Can you talk a little bit—it seems to me that, you know, we’ll talk about intervention and kind of what goes on with cases in a minute. But, you know, we’d like to prevent as many of these kinds of things as we can. And I think when you look at, you know, lots of child abuse professionals are involved in doing child sexual abuse prevention messaging, but I would say this is not always an area that previously has gotten a lot of intention or being incorporated into that prevention messaging.

So, you know, knowing that especially CACs but others as well are out in schools talking to youth, what are the key messages that you think that they need to be incorporating into prevention messaging, whether it’s to kids and youth or whether it’s to parents?

Katie Connell:
Right. I think a couple thoughts. You know, I always try to say to parents, the number one worry for the kids when we interview is, “I’m going to be in trouble.”

Teresa Huizar:
Mmm.

Katie Connell:
 “They’re taking away my technology.” Right? And we really try to emphasize to parents: Listen, they were victimized. You know, they might have gotten online and they might have thought this was somebody that was maybe their boyfriend, girlfriend, or somebody they were chatting with, or whatever it is. But they were—they were groomed and they have that, you know, predatory behavior that’s being placed upon them, and, and the threats and the coercion. And so, yes, they’re victims. And I think helping parents to understand that.

But I also think for parents, I always say, “You know, that technology’s a privilege.” And I think too many parents now today feel like—like I, you know, I had one not too long ago say, “Well, I don’t feel like I can violate her privacy and look at her phone.” And I’m like, “Well, do you pay for that phone?” And she said, “Yes.” And I said, “Well, you can.” [Laughter] “You own that phone.”

I think really the communication with kids is: “If somebody approaches you, if somebody asks you for the—even if you do send something, please let Mom and Dad know. We’ll help you out of this. If somebody comes back and threatens you.” It’s just that open dialogue because, honestly, Teresa, I just think it’s going to be a rare thing that anybody that is online now that isn’t eventually going to have something like that happen, where somebody approaches them or tries to threaten them in some way.

I mean, we get it right? Like mine today, your Amazon accounts a lot. I don’t have an Amazon account, you know.

[Laughter]

Teresa Huizar:
Right.

Katie Connell:
I don’t have one. We all could be exposed to that. But, and for kids, I know, like I said, when the FBI—we’ve been pushing out some public service announcements, and I know some other of the agencies have—is just saying: “Just tell somebody.”

Teresa Huizar:
Mm-hmm.

Katie Connell:
You know, “Call the FBI.”

And we do have kids that are calling and saying, “Hey, this is happening to me.”

Teresa Huizar:
Oh, that’s interesting.

Katie Connell:
The message that we want to get out to everybody, and especially kids and parents, just call.

[21:46] Teresa Huizar:
And it sounds like, you know, in addition to, you know, parents talking to their kids about the usual warnings about safety online, that part of what you’re saying is, you have to reassure your kids that you’re not going to be furious with them if they make a mistake online. And that they should still come and tell you, and not fear that you’re going to suddenly punish them or be mad at them.

Otherwise they’re not going to tell you. They’re going to let this go on for a while before—and really get out of hand, potentially—

Katie Connell:
Mm-hmm.

Teresa Huizar:
—before they feel like they have to speak up. Or maybe they won’t ever speak up about what’s happening to them.

Katie Connell:
Yeah. That phone is in their technology, that’s their lifeline, right?, to that generation. And so if a parent is taking that away, you go, “Well, okay, let’s balance this out somehow. You know, they were victimized, so do we punish them by taking that away?” And they’ve lost their lifeline to their whole support group.

It is tough. It’s very difficult, and I think kids are much more savvy than parents. I’m so glad mine are older [laughter] and I don’t have to do this. But it is, it’s very difficult for parents to navigate the lay of the land.

But also I always say, “No technology at night in a bedroom alone with Wi-Fi.”

Teresa Huizar:
Mmm! Mmm.

Katie Connell:
And it’s where normally it’s happening, you know. So parents are asleep, kids are in their bedroom with their phone, Wi-Fi is connected, and they’re chatting with their subjects. Or there’s, you know, pictures are happening, videos are happening, FaceTime’s happening.

I say to parents again, “You know: boundaries. Either shut the Wi-Fi off at night, which can all happen.”

Teresa Huizar:
Sure.

Katie Connell:
 “Or take that phone away. Put it in your bedroom until the next morning when they get it back.”

It’s just, again, helping that vulnerability and that ability to maybe not make the greatest choices by not having some of that at their fingertips, so.

[23:23] Teresa Huizar:
You know, that was going to be a follow-up question. I’m glad you alluded to it, which is, when is this happening most?

Katie Connell:
Mm-hmm.

Teresa Huizar:
It can’t be, well, I guess I can’t say “can’t,” but mostly it’s probably not during the school day. So is this primarily happening at night and on weekends or something else?

Katie Connell:
Yeah, I think we get a lot of it in the evenings to that point where parents are asleep. But I will tell you, I have kids that are getting the constant messages during the day at school.

Teresa Huizar:
Oh, interesting.

Katie Connell:
Mm-hmm. And the pressure, and the threats. And the, you know, “Here’s who I sent this to today, and hopefully you don’t see them at school.” You know, I mean there definitely is that—it’s wearing them down.

It’s that just keeping at ’em, at ’em, at ’em, at ’em and not letting up. So it’s a lot of pressure. And you’ll see kids where we are interviewing them, they’ll say, “I told him I had a test today and I couldn’t do anything. And he said, ‘If you don’t go, send me that picture, go to the bathroom, and I’m sending this out.’”

So. Again, that is just a lot for them to be able to navigate and handle. It’s too much.

[24:18] Teresa Huizar:
That’s true. Well, and as you say, that coercive control is something to be thinking about too as it relates to these offenders. How much of that—I mean, there is no sense of urgency about it, so they’re creating a sense of urgency—

Katie Connell:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
—in order to see, will this kid now leave his classroom in the middle of the test and go to the bathroom and—

Katie Connell:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
—do whatever they’re doing. That’s interesting.

[24:36]
You know, I’m wondering with all of the—you know, our lives are going to get more and more complicated because, you know, now computer-generated images can put your face on anybody or anything like that. And I’m just wondering, like on the one hand, are we all going to face more of this because we don’t completely control our own image, you know?

Katie Connell:
Mm-hmm. I think it’s a reality, right? It definitely is something that could happen. And I don’t know enough about the AI, the artificial intelligence and all those things, but I think we’re starting to see those things creep into some of the investigations. Which will be, again, a whole new dynamic for the agents and our task force officers that are investigating those.

So again, yeah, stay tuned.

[25:16] Teresa Huizar:
And for us to think about what that means for victims, if that’s not even really a photo of them, but they are getting harassed because of it or something like that.

Let’s turn a little bit to kind of the investigation, prosecution, you know, intervention side of this. When you’re thinking about talking to multidisciplinary teams and, you know, you and your folks train a lot.

Katie Connell:
Mm-hmm.

Teresa Huizar:
And not asking you to reveal anything that, you know, you shouldn’t about investigative tactics or anything like that. But what should forensic interviewers, victim advocates—those folks who are going to be actually talking to these kids and families—what should they be thinking about differently or emphasizing when they’re talking to, whether it’s families or thinking about in terms of the forensic interview—

Katie Connell:
Mm-hmm.

Teresa Huizar:
—and the questions that they’re asking that might elicit more?

Because I can imagine there could be kids who are coming in and they’ve been victimized in a variety of ways, and this is just maybe one way—

Katie Connell:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
—that they’ve been victimized among others.

Katie Connell:
Yeah. You know, I think in the forensic interview world, I mean, we are encouraging—you know, we have our MOU with NCA, and we encourage that partnership and training a lot, and providing training for, in that arena of evidence presenting.

I mean, we do use the CSAM images in our interview, because we have found over the years that if we don’t have the evidence, kids won’t disclose to what they know you don’t have. And, and I get that. You know, they should have control of that—of what’s happened to them and what they want to talk about.

I think having the images in the interview and being able to use those and look at the federal nexus for those things is: “Tell me how, you know, how this image came about. Who told you to do these things?” Have you ever seen this on, you know, anywhere else?” is really looking at the federal side of that too. Because, as you know, we rely on the CAC interviewers that are participating in the MOU to help us in these caseloads and asking not only state questions but the federal side because—or maybe it is a state case but there is a federal component that we could also prosecute on.

And so I think when they look at all of those elements, just as a habit, because maybe it doesn’t stay just state and it goes federal too, but we don’t want to have to repeat interviews.

But also just understand the dynamics of, if somebody doesn’t want to disclose, we’re not going to show them more images or we’re not going to push them on that because we know—and I back that up a little bit because people say, well, why do we seem to have the suicide rate higher in these cases than we do with our—and I’m not minimizing—but like our traditional sexual abuse cases—

Teresa Huizar:
Sure.

Katie Connell:
—we see at the CAC? And I think what research has said—is the research that’s out there is that victims that have technology involved in their victimization, it doubles the likelihood that they won’t disclose.

And so then you have to say, why is that? But I think some of the things we talked about is that it’s memorialized. Their abuse, their exploitation has now been memorialized in an image, a video, whatever that might be. And so they no longer have control about who finds this out. Or you know, who knows about it. If you have none of that, you have more control in the choice to say, “I don’t want to tell you about this. Yes, more happened, but I’m not ready to talk about it, and I may never want to talk about it.” But when those images and videos are there, they’ve lost—I mean, it’s about power and control, right? And they no longer have any control at all.

And I think that that’s what we’re seeing that; we’re seeing such a devastating effect on them. And you see all the other things that we know with sexual abuse victims, but just that next level, that this has been memorialized forever, basically.

Teresa Huizar:
I think you bring up a good point, which is if you have been abused, but that has not been memorialized in that way, then what you tell your friends about that, or family, or whatever is really up to you entirely—at your own pace, those kinds of things.

On the other hand, if you’re worried that someone could just be scrolling through the internet and suddenly there’s going to be an image of your abuse, I mean, that would be a very traumatic thought, I think, for anybody. You know, and I think that you bring up a good point about the presentation of evidence, which is, you know, sometimes that will advance a disclosure so that kids can get help in a way that might have taken a lot longer.

And the other thing—you know, the way I think about it, because I think this has been sometimes a controversial or fraught topic.

Katie Connell:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
I think of it like other types of evidence that someone might be shown in a case.

You know, you might be shown a room and asked to describe that because that’s where the location happened. Or you might be asked to look at an actual piece of physical evidence.

Katie Connell:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
And say, you know, “How’d that stain get there? How did that—” whatever. So to me, yes, it’s different in terms of its content and we have to be very sensitive.

Katie Connell:
Yes.

Teresa Huizar:
But I think we have to keep in mind that the issue about needing to talk about evidence and that that talking sometimes requires the showing of it, is not just unique to this issue or in this way.

Katie Connell:
Right. And to your point, sensitive presentation of that. Right?

Teresa Huizar:
Yeah.

Katie Connell:
And I think that we always want people to know, I mean, if a child or an adult, whoever it might be is a victim who says, “I don’t want to see that,” then we don’t show that to them.

Teresa Huizar:
Yeah.

Katie Connell:
You know? We will go from there. But at the end of the day, and I think you’ve heard me say this, they at least leave that interview knowing somebody knows about the images or the videos. They no longer have to keep that secret. We have said we know about this. If they don’t want to talk about it, that’s OK too. So utilizing what we can, because we know that disclosure’s so difficult with the technology combined with the victimization.

[30:47] Teresa Huizar:
I think that’s a really good and, you know, a helpful way to frame that.

And I think it’s probably helpful for child abuse professionals to know that if a child says, “I really don’t want to see that,” that’s it. You know?

Katie Connell:
Mmm-hmm. Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
And I think that’s a really respectful way to handle that.

I’m wondering, as you think about these cases and kind of what you’re seeing overall, what do you think the public policy implications are for this? In terms of—I mean, one we’ve already talked about a little bit, which is there is just not enough money that’s being poured into addressing these at scale. And it’s not to say that, you know, Congress hasn’t been generous in some ways, but frankly, more is needed. And I think, you know, if you were to talk to, whether it’s NCA or I’m not going to speak for others, but I think that most of us who are in this space are like, there’s just not enough resources that are going to this.

Katie Connell:
Yeah. Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
But are there other things where you say, “Yeah, there’s not enough money.” But aside from that, you know, is there something in the regulatory framework or in, I don’t know, you pick it, but is there something where you say, “Here’s where pub public policy could really make a difference?”

Katie Connell:
Yeah. You know, that’s a hard one, right?

Because I think … I think to me, and this is just me, I think the fine line becomes public policy versus freedom of speech, right?

Teresa Huizar:
Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Katie Connell:
Or freedom of the internet. And, you know, I think a lot of companies, a lot of the, you know, social media companies have things in place to try to help prevent these things. But I don’t know that it can ever be controlled, Teresa. I mean, I think that just again, the volume, coupled with kids and brains not fully developed, all those things. And it’s just educating as much as we can. I think it’s the education of—whether it’s in the schools and trickling that down, whether, you know, workplace for just parents in general just helping them understand.

You know, earlier today I was watching the news and it’s the ban on TikTok, right? And you go, but you know, will there be something else that comes up that—

Teresa Huizar:
Next week. [Laughter] Yeah.

Katie Connell:
 There will be. There’s always another platform that—

Teresa Huizar:
That’s right.

Katie Connell:
—somehow, some way, there’s probably a way to victimize kids on there. And so, eah, I I don’t have a—I wish I had a good answer for that, but I think it’s an interesting thing to think about for sure.

[32:57] Teresa Huizar:
I just really wonder, you know, as the scale of this has so exploded, is there some point in which we’ve reached the peak? You know, I don’t think it’s yet—

Katie Connell:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
—but I hope there is one at some point [laughter] because it has to feel very … like you’re trying to climb a very high mountain when you are having to triage cases.

Because there’s just limited resources. I mean, just exactly what you described about the CAC. No CAC wants a three- to four-week waitlist.

Katie Connell:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
I mean, no one wants that. But at the same time, if you’re completely inundated with volume, you know, you are going to have to triage cases in some way.

Katie Connell:
You do. This is the hard part—and you know this, you’ve been in this field, we’ve been together a long time this field—is, the triage process becomes so difficult because you really are putting people in different arenas of what’s, what’s most egregious, what’s less egregious, and what’s not. But how do you figure that out, right? At the end of the day, what maybe looks less egregious might not be, because we know trauma is defined individually by that victim. And so two victims can have the same exact thing happen to them, and one completely moves on in life and heals and gets the help, and one never does. So defining that and triaging is, it’s the worry. It is definitely a worry of do you miss something? But you have no choice.

[34:19] Teresa Huizar:
Well, and the worry all the time, right?

Katie Connell:
Right. Yep.

Teresa Huizar:
I just think too, like, some of it is—you know, even if you think about that triage work from kind of an imminent risk, like, is this kid safe right now?

Katie Connell:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
On the other hand, you don’t entirely know everything that’s happened to this kiddo until they get in the interview room and tell you what they want to tell you.

Right. So you might come in, you, you’ve seen an image or two, but you don’t really know the full scope of it until they get in. They’re telling you about all these other things that went on.

Katie Connell:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
Or that they met up with this person, or you know, whatever. And then you’re like, oh my God, this case has taken a whole other [laughter] a whole other dimension.

Katie Connell:
Yeah, absolutely. Yep. You are absolutely.

[34:58] Teresa Huizar:
So when you look into the future a little bit, you know, I mean the nature of your work is constantly changing. I bet you would say that since 2004, like, you know, some things have stayed the same. But on the other hand, it seems like the full range of your cases has probably exploded.

What do you see coming down the pike that you think that CACs and child abuse professionals need to be thinking? Like, OK, we’re seeing a little bit of this now, but there could be a lot more of it later, or just other things that they should be paying more attention to? Maybe something that’s been around for a long time, but that you feel, “Gosh, we haven’t really paid enough attention to that.”

Katie Connell:
Yeah, I mean, I think when you and I talked about this, I think this was one of them, you know, sextortion, we’ve been presenting on sextortion for quite a while now. And, I don’t think people quite got it, like really? You know that. But I do think the trickle effect now is hitting at the state level, at the local level; and incorporating those questions into their interview of technology.

You know, I would just say again, anecdotally, I’d find it really hard to believe victims that are coming in that haven’t had some form of technology involved in their victimization, right? Because those phones are so readily available and in everyone’s hands. And I think we’ve, you know, instead of just doing our traditional interview of looking at if things have happened, hands-on offense. But having that question in there about technology, about images, I feel like that it’s really going to open the door for things that victims haven’t been disclosing before.

[36:32] Teresa Huizar:
I think that that is just so true. I think that years ago we thought that these were sort of different types of cases and different types of victims, and now we’re finding that so many kids have had, I mean, you just sort of have to assume that probably technology was involved in some way until it’s proven that it wasn’t

Yeah, because even if you don’t have an image, maybe it was something live-streamed. You know, or maybe it was something in Snapchat and a little video’s long gone, but it existed at one time, so, yeah. Yeah, it’s a good point that we need to be asking about those things.

[37:06]
Is there anything else that I should have asked you and didn’t, or anything else that you want to make sure that we talk about today, or that child abuse professionals are really thinking about as they approach these cases?

Katie Connell:
No, I mean, I think we’ve talked about a lot and, you know, I think that as people become more aware of it—you know, I did a presentation a couple months ago here in Michigan, and I think that there was just a really great response just from the professionals to say, “We really didn’t understand it until we just talked about it.”

And so I think, knowing this field and the people that are in this and wanting to help, once they’re a little more educated about it, I do think that that knowledge is going to be taken back to their CACs, to their, you know, their outreach, to be able to start to message this out.

You know, we really need to be paying attention. It’s a serious public crisis and in many ways for our kids that I think the general public is just starting to understand and feel that same way we do .

[37:58] Teresa Huizar:
Well, I just so appreciate the partnership. I mean, we’ve had an MOU for eight years now, and this growing partnership has been really important in terms of serving kids.

And you were a mastermind, an architect of so much of that, Katie, and I just, just truly appreciate you—and I’ve just been so pleased and, I’m not going to say surprised, a little astounded by the sheer numbers of CAC forensic interviewers who have turned up for the webinars that you guys have been doing in partnership with us about presenting evidence.

I’ve been delighted. It was just been—

Katie Connell:
Same with me. Huge. Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
Huge, huge numbers, and I think it just points to the fact that the field wants to do as good a job as they possibly can. But I also know that you guys are stretched thin. You’re out there working cases, cases, cases. So thank you for making time to do all that education with us.

Katie Connell:
Yeah. Absolutely. And we appreciate the partnership, and I think it’s growing and, yeah, I’ve been super excited about it. So yeah, thank you for having me.

[outro music begins]

[38:53] Teresa Huizar:
Oh, believe me, on one of these other topics that we didn’t even get to today, we’ll have you back sometime. [Laughter] But thank you again, Katie, and uh, you know, tell your colleagues too. We sure appreciate you guys.

Katie Connell:
I will. Thanks so much.

[outro]

Teresa Huizar:
Thanks for listening to One in Ten. If you like this episode, please rate it wherever you listen and share it with a friend. And for more information about this episode or any other, please visit our podcast website at OneInTenPodcast.org.