Creating Change Through Storytelling, with Sally Zimney

Season 6Episode 11July 27, 2024

How do we persuade people more effectively and more authentically?

How do we persuade people more effectively and more authentically? And how does telling our own leadership story help those we’re trying to persuade to trust us and what we’re trying to do? Storytelling, and using it to make human connections, is a key part of the answer. We spoke with Sally Zimney, the author of Speaking Story, to learn more.

Topics in this episode:

02:41 – Origin story

06:22 – Storytelling is having a moment

11:27 – Female leaders, storytelling, and leadership

15:14 – What is a story?

16:58 – Misconceptions about storytelling

19:33 – Find your own story

29:52 – What the audience needs from you

33:06 – How do you want people to feel?

35:13 – Editing

37:49 – Terrible advice

39:39 – Preparing (great advice)

44:46 – Perfection kills connection

51:01 – For more information

Links:

Sally was the closing speaker at the 2024 NCA Leadership Conference

For more information about National Children’s Alliance and the work of Children’s Advocacy Centers, visit our website at NationalChildrensAlliance.org. And join us on Facebook at One in Ten podcast.

 

Season 6, Episode 11

“Creating Change Through Storytelling,” with Sally Zimney

[Intro music]

[Intro]

[00:09] Teresa Huizar:
Hi, I’m Teresa Huizar, your host of One in Ten. In today’s episode, “Creating Change Through Storytelling,” I speak with Sally Zimney, the author of Speaking Story.

Virtually every child abuse professional is also a professional persuader. A persuader of funders and donors, community leaders, and stakeholders of all kinds. We persuade our staff, MDT [multidisciplinary team] partners, and our clients. But how do we go about doing that persuasion more effectively and more authentically? And how does telling our own leadership story help those we’re trying to persuade to trust us and what we’re trying to do?

As you will hear, storytelling—and using it to make faster human connection—is a key part of the answer. Intrigued? Join our conversation with a master storyteller to learn more. Please take a listen.

[01:06] Teresa Huizar:
Hi, Sally. Welcome to One in Ten.

Sally Zimney:
Thank you. I’m so delighted to be here. Thank you for having me.

[00:16] Teresa Huizar:
I mean, I should have said “welcome back,” because even though you haven’t been on the podcast before, many of our listeners saw you at our Leadership Conference, and we just got rave reviews about that. So it’s good that we’re having a follow-up conversation.

Sally Zimney:
Aww! It was so fun, Teresa. Let me just say, wonderful humans all gathered together doing good in the world. I loved the time there. I love chatting with all of your community and all kinds of—all kinds of different people doing all kinds of different things. It was a bright spot for me as well. So I’m really grateful that you invited me to be a part of it. It was really fun.

[01:50] Teresa Huizar:
I have to tell you, I was amazed at how you rebounded with your luggage not arriving or whatever happened with that.

Sally Zimney:
[Laughter]

Teresa Huizar:
I have had that happen to me. I’m not sure I was so like, calm, cool, and collected about my luggage just taking off into the ether. But you just made it work.

Sally Zimney:
Yeah. Well, you know, it helps that we were right in D.C. and there’s a TJ Maxx down the hill and, like, Nordstrom Rack. And I had a good friend who was there in the audience. So she and I just did a shopping trip, and it was great. It was fun. And ultimately, you know, on Amazon, I was like, can you ship it? Can it get here? I mean, so it was probably one of those, the duck on top of the water was like, “We got this!” and underneath there was definitely some, like, really fast-moving feet. [Laughter]

[02:41] Teresa Huizar:
I mean, I think this is like a really good metaphor for some of this we’re going to be talking about with storytelling too.

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
You know, the way you prepare but you also have to be able to cope with change. So let’s start kind of in your beginning with storytelling, which is: What made you so interested in storytelling? How did you come to this work training leaders and thought leaders around storytelling?

Sally Zimney:
Yeah, well, I had some really on-the-job experience where I got to, in the moment, see the impact of what happens when we lean into stories and when we don’t. I spent many years, probably 10 years, speaking in front of teenagers. Which is a great audience to test stuff on because they will absolutely let you know when you are not meeting their bar.

They tend to have a bar around a few different things. The first thing is authenticity. They+6 want to feel like you’re being real with them, that you get what they’re going through. And if you at all sound like the adult—I sometimes think of it as like the adult from the Peanuts commercial that’s like, “Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah,”—

Teresa Huizar:
Yeah.

Sally Zimney:
just talking at them, they’re not going to care about these ideas that they really need to care about. So how can we package up the ideas into, you know, a format that they will be more willing to listen to them, to think about it, to take it in? And I just remember the moment where I was standing in front of the audience, and I knew that I had written a beautiful script. I knew that the idea was sound. It was beautiful and important and needed. And they didn’t care. And I thought, “Okay, I have to change the way that I’m doing this.”

And so essentially I was using stories, but I wasn’t using them very strategically, and I wasn’t using them in the moment when I needed to. So I just started to play with how and when I use stories. And so stories took a more prominent role in my speaking, and it became the avenue through which they were engaged. They felt the resonance of what I was talking about. They felt like, “She gets me,” even though I was not their age, not living their particular life. And they said, “Okay, I’m curious. I’m interested.” And they started leaning in. And then I could introduce these ideas to them.

I kind of sometimes think of it as like, you know, the Trojan horse and the old Greek tale.

Teresa Huizar:
Yeah.

Sally Zimney:
Like the story is bringing the message into the other side of the fortress. To get in there and open them up to something that they may not otherwise be interested in. And that experience, I didn’t know exactly why, but I knew stories were a really powerful part of it.

And then I went on to grad school, got my master’s degree in the concept of persuasion. What persuades people? And why are people persuaded by some things and not by other things? And again and again, stories came up as the most powerful tool that we have at our disposal as leaders in order to engage and connect people to these ideas that we care about. And then spent many, many years experimenting with that, not just in front of teenagers but in front of all kinds of different audiences: How do we leverage the story and use that as a tool to help people care about these ideas that we care about and want them to care about?

[06:22] Teresa Huizar:
You know, I think overall, it feels like storytelling has had a real moment in the last few years.

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
Lots of podcasts devoted to storytelling and these sorts of things. What do you think that is about, sort of like the storytelling renaissance that you see—

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
in general culture?

Sally Zimney:
Mm-hmm.

Well, you know, I kind of see the advent of storytelling, kind of like the advent of the TEDx Talk and thought leadership. Like our humanness and prioritizing who we are as human beings has taken more center stage. And I think that’s a really, really good thing. That, as communities, as workplaces, we are recognizing again that we are humans first. And workers also—but you can’t separate the human from the worker.

And so as we invite in more of who we are as full, complete human beings, and as we recognize that you cannot separate our ideas from our experiences, our stories, our life’s journeys that shape who we are as leaders and workers and employees and advocates—though all of those things are tied together. And so you can’t help but say, if we’re going to recognize and prioritize our well-being, our general—you know, as we look at the renaissance of who are we as human beings together in a workplace, stories are naturally going to become a part of that. Because it’s an incredibly powerful way to learn each other and know each other and find a deeper connection with each other.

So, to me, those two things all happened together. And I think it’s why we’re paying more attention to our stories. And other people’s stories.

[08:14] Teresa Huizar:
It’s sort of interesting in that some groups have had a long storytelling tradition, right? And others It seems like didn’t lean into that as much. I was thinking about—

Sally Zimney:
Mm-hmm.

Teresa Huizar:
even just geographically. It’s somewhat different in the South. Some people are just sort of known for storytelling and this is an occupation—

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
and a form of entertainment all its own. Well-respected for a long time.

What do you make of the fact that people do—leaders especially—seem somewhat hesitant around this idea of storytelling?

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
Like, most leaders can spew off all the statistics and facts and—

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Teresa Huizar:
rational arguments for whatever they want to talk about, um, and for their area of expertise. Why does it not necessarily for all of us come naturally to think about storytelling and telling our story?

Sally Zimney:
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Well, I would say I actually think it comes naturally to us. Like, people in the right context love to tell a story. Something funny that happened, or remarkable or interesting or noteworthy to some degree. But you put yourself in a work context, and it feels like all the rules change. Like, “Oh, huh. Now is it okay for me to tell this?” Or, “Does anybody else care?” Or, “I don’t want to waste people’s time.” Some of the worries that I hear from people are like, “Well, they don’t—nobody cares about my story. Nobody cares about this.” Or, you know, “We’re just going to get straight to the facts. Everybody’s like, on a timeline.”  And we think, we’ve convinced ourselves, that we humans are persuaded by logic, facts, and figures. And, to some degree, we are. But we are missing the boat if we don’t lean into the emotive power of storytelling. But workplaces, it feels like our credibility is on the line and it can feel especially vulnerable. Like, these are different rules. We haven’t really figured out the rules. That’s how, like, is it really okay for me to share this part of my story with other people? Is that crossing some sort of boundary?

So I think we’re in the middle of renegotiating what it means when we say we want to bring our authentic stories to the workplace. It’s like, well, there are boundaries. Like, context matters. It’s not like say anything at any time and you’re like, “Well, I’m just being my full authentic self.” Well, context still matters.

So I think the resistance comes from not really knowing what the new rules are on this. What the boundaries really are. And is it really okay? Will people judge me? Will I be seen as less of a leader, less capable, less kind of like leader-worthy if I share this time of struggle?

I think that’s the internal stories that we’re telling ourselves, the internal challenge. It doesn’t bear out in the experiential reality of the impact of stories. But that is absolutely what I’ve seen in terms of why people are so resistant. Does that resonate with you?

[11:27] Teresa Huizar:
I was thinking as you were talking about the fact that we’re in a profession that is largely led by women.

Sally Zimney:
Mmm.

Teresa Huizar:
And that a lot of women have had the experience, in business or nonprofit leadership, where they’ve been accused of being too emotional.

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
And so I wonder to what extent this impacts people’s willingness to tell a story because they’re like, “Okay—

Sally Zimney:
Mmm.

Teresa Huizar:
I’ve already been, you know, brushed with that broad brush and nothing good comes of it.”

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
So, you know, how do you talk to especially women executives around this issue of storytelling? Knowing that their own experiences, their lived experience of how they’re treated, when they show emotion, it’s just different.

Sally Zimney:
Sure.

Teresa Huizar:
It is gendered.

Sally Zimney:
Yeah. I think that’s super insightful. And the advice that I would give, or the suggestion, especially for women who feel like: “You know what? I’ve been there. And actually, you know, I was discredited or sort of brushed aside because I was leaning into the more vulnerable side of this kind of leadership power.” But what I would say is, it’s really about balance and it’s about both. That leaders who lean too far into the intellectual or too far into the logical, and the more, like, ethical persuasive strategies, those are really important. And I would never say it’s not emotion at the cost of those things. It’s really how they inform each other and emphasize each other.

For example, when if you’re somebody who, like, really loves a good stat and like, okay, this, this is a powerful stat. The truth is, what makes that that powerful is some sort of emotive story behind that stats. You work with and advocate for children. Like there are some really alarming stats that can be persuasive, but actually what makes them meaningful are the stories behind those stats. So when we, when we combine these powers together, that’s when we can really trust the ethics of this. Because anybody who leans too far heavily into the emotive appeal, at the cost of logic, that is what I would call manipulation.

Teresa Huizar:
Mmm.

Sally Zimney:
That’s not what we’re going for.

And I’m not saying that women who have been painted with that brush have been doing that. But just to know that when you share something that has a motive or a passion behind it for you, where we hear the stories—either yours or other people’s—when we see that passion, that emotion is—the string of that is so essential. Because without it, the stats and your brilliant mind and your ideas and the logic, it’s not going to stick the way it sticks when we can pair that with some kind of emotive appeal.

So just know that your fear on that is absolutely fair. You only need to show just enough. It’s not, you know, we’re not asking you to lean so far into that that you feel like you’ve lost this really strong credibility that you’ve worked hard to build for yourself. But it’s really about the pairing of those two things and bringing them all out.

So, the resistance you’re feeling, I think if you can move through that and have a moment where you share and show, like, reveal a little bit of the emotive side of it, and you’re going to feel that connection with whoever it is you’re talking to, and you’ll feel the benefit of it, is my hope, because that’s what I’ve seen.

[15:14] Teresa Huizar:
So this kind of is an excellent segue into, what is a story? Because it’s not just anything—

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
that flies out of your mouth. [Laughter] So, when we’re talking about a story, and especially one that would be told in a work context, what is that?

Sally Zimney:
Yeah. There are a lot of definitions out there. To me, when I am talking to people, I encourage them to tell stories.

There’s anecdotes, which tend to be like a summary, a generic summary. You’re talking about something, you know, it’s an overview generally of a thing versus a story that happens in one particular moment in time. To me, this is the one signifying definitive characteristic of a story. It has to have happened in a particular moment in time. Because as soon as you place it in one moment in time, it starts to come alive imaginatively in our brains. We start to see it in our heads from an audience’s perspective. And as soon as you do that, you’re turning on all of that persuasive power of the story. But if it doesn’t happen in one moment in time, it’s really hard to lean into all of the goodness in it, and the persuasive juice that’s in stories.

So without it being in one moment in time, we can’t really leverage the power of it. So without that, I don’t know, it’s a great anecdote. Interesting fact.

Teresa Huizar:
But it’s not a story.

Sally Zimney:
Potentially—yeah, but it’s not a story. Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
That’s interesting. So there’s something around the specificity of it—

Sally Zimney:
Mm-hmm.

Teresa Huizar:
that makes people more curious, want to hear more, but it makes it more believable. All of those things.

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
Interesting.

[16:58]
So, when you’re working with leaders on storytelling, which I know you do as a part of your consulting work, they must arrive with a lot of interesting ideas. Let’s call them that instead of myths and misconceptions. Interesting ideas about storytelling. What are some common ones where you’re like, “Close, but not quite.” You know, are there some that just commonly crop up?

Sally Zimney:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So a big one is, they think they’re telling a story but they’re not because it doesn’t exist in a particular moment in time. So that’s the first thing.

A lot of times leaders want to tell all of their success stories. [Laughter]

Teresa Huizar:
Oh, that’s great.

Sally Zimney:
Like, “I want to tell you about this time when I did it, and if you do it like me, then you also will be as wise and brilliant as I am.” Right? Because it’s vulnerable to share the things that are hard. It might be a story from a moment in time, but that’s not going to be your most effective story, necessarily. So they tend to only share a certain kind of story. And I’m saying, “Hey, and let’s open ourselves up.” Not that you can’t tell those success stories, but if you want people to believe that they can do what you’ve done, then you have to talk about a time when you were where they were—or where they are right now. Which means getting back to a place where maybe things were hard or where things weren’t going well and what you learned from those moments.

Sometimes people want to share stories that I might say aren’t ready to be told yet. And those are stories that still feel too raw.

Teresa Huizar:
Mmm.

Sally Zimney:
So Brené Brown talks about to speak from your scars, not your scabs. Meaning the things that still feel a little itchy, that still feel a little too raw, where you can’t quite—you haven’t figured out the wisdom that you’ve learned from that story yet. It’s too close in the distant past. Versus a scar is something that happened long enough ago that you can look back and say, “Okay, I have a perspective on what happened here and here’s the wisdom that I can draw from that.” So it’s really, helping people sus out what is the right story at the right time for the right audience that’s going to help them make the transformation that we’re trying to create with them.

[19:33] Teresa Huizar:
Which is an excellent segue really to the next question I had for you. I can imagine you have to get folks who say, “I don’t have any stories.” [Laughter] Or, you know—

Sally Zimney:
All the time!

Teresa Huizar:
or “My stories are not very interesting,” right? They’re boring. You know, “I live this very boring life.”

Sally Zimney:
Mm-hmm.

Teresa Huizar:
“I don’t have some revolutionary story that I invented something.”

Sally Zimney:
Yeah!

Teresa Huizar:
“Or this magical moment.” How do you help people find their own stories who might be thinking that?

Sally Zimney:
Well, this is where I talk about our role as leaders, which is to create perspective, right? To help people understand themselves and their roles in a new way. So as a leader, you’re setting out a vision for your people and you’re trying to help them move in that direction. So that means that you are a thought leader. Or another way of thinking about that is you shape perspective. So when we are telling stories, that’s part of what we are trying to do.

And the reason I gave you that preamble to this answer is that we can shape perspective in any moment. So depending on the way in which you view the world and view all of these potential stories that happen all around us all the time depends on your ability to not just tell that story but to make it meaningful for the people that you’re talking to.

So, as an example, it’s really easy to talk about the perspective change that happened if something dramatic happened to you, okay? The wisdom and revelations from that are pretty easily accessible. And there’s some natural drama that happened in that. So you’re just, you know, the curiosity’s already built in. Those are stories that are really ripe to be shared if it’s the right time to share it for the right audience, okay?

But most of us come to the—especially the work that I do—and they’re like, “I don’t have any stories to share. Who cares about me and my low life? All I do is I get up, I go to work, I come home, I make dinner. Like, who cares?” You know? The reality is, if we see the world as a story that is happening in front of us all the time, that everybody around us is living a story, everybody around us is dealing with all kinds of challenges that are happening in their lives, actually, there are stories happening everywhere all the time—if we can stop to see it. If we can appreciate it. If we can not be so busy ourselves that we’re just like, “Whatever, I’m just doing my thing.”

Well, that’s one way of seeing your life. Another way of seeing it is, I get up every day and go impact people in this particular way. And I was at the grocery store,” as an example, “and noticed this.” “I witnessed this.” “This happened, and it touched me or moved me in some way.”

So what I’m always working with people to do is to just pay attention to what moves you? What is moving you? And if you get to the end of the day and like nothing has moved you, it’s probably less likely that life isn’t moving and more likely we just haven’t had the time and space to notice it for ourselves. And as leaders, we have to create that kind of space. If we want to shape perspective and lean into the insights that we have and the wisdom that we are creating and how we want to help move people towards something else, then we have to really pay attention to how we are being moved and what we’re learning from that experience.

[23:23] Teresa Huizar:
So how do you, how do you suggest that people cultivate that in themselves aside from just having time, which is real?

Sally Zimney:
Mm-hmm.

Teresa Huizar:
You know, setting aside some time to be reflective—

Sally Zimney:
Yeah!

Teresa Huizar:
is real that, you know, many of us don’t. And so—

[Cross-talk]

Sally Zimney:
Oh my gosh.

Teresa Huizar:
clearly that, you know. But the other thing is you could set that aside, that time, and I can imagine somebody sitting there going, “ [Teresa is quiet, like someone trying to come up with an idea.] ” [Laughter] You know what I mean? [Laughter]

[Cross-talk]

Sally Zimney:
Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

Teresa Huizar:
Like, I’m reflecting, but I’m not coming up with the story. Is there something about the con— [Laughter]

[Cross-talk]

Sally Zimney:
Yeah. “This is my time!” Right? “This is my scheduled time to be reflective and brilliant and have insights!”

Teresa Huizar:
That’s right!

Sally Zimney:
“This is my scheduled time to be reflective—

Teresa Huizar:
Right. Right.

Sally Zimney:
It’s like, “Oh, I feel that.” I mean, just to be clear, I have had on my, like, vision boards, “I’m going to get up in the morning and journal every day” for literal decades. And it’s still not happening.

Teresa Huizar:
[Laughter] Yeah.

Sally Zimney:
So, you know, I also struggle with this. Absolutely.

But what I would say is, you just never know when these moments are going to strike you. And whether or not—like, sometimes we’re just like chickens with our heads cut off and we’re moving too quickly through the world and missing—missing—the moments. But sometimes we see the moment, we experienced the moment, we have a moment where like, “Oh my gosh, awesome!”

Or like, you know, “I read this article, and this jumped out at me,” or “I listened to this podcast,” or “I’m reading this book.” Like we are often taking in—there’s so much inspirational, interesting fodder for us in our growth and development as human beings. The question is, are you capturing it in the moment? And are you collecting it?

So that would be my big piece of advice is, do you have a go-to place for you to take that moment and make sure you don’t miss it? So I have on my phone, because that’s always with me, is: What was the thing I just experienced? And just jot it down.

Teresa Huizar:
Mmm.

Sally Zimney:
If you’re being really intentional with that, you know, you’ve got a notes app. You’re not just talking about what you noticed, but you’re talking about why might my audience care about that? Whoever your audience is. Your employees, right? Or your constituents. Or whoever it is that you end up sharing your stories with or speaking to that you’re trying to persuade. Why might they care? Donors, potential donors, right?

So it’s a twofold process. If you’re being really intentional at that time. What happened that moved me? And why might my audience care about that particular thing? You don’t have to write it all out. You just want to be able to, when you’re needing some inspiration, to pull it out and look at it and go, “Yeah, I forgot about that” because we’re so quickly moving on to the next thing,

[26:14] Teresa Huizar:
In the book Speaking Story, you talk about these stories that are things that, essentially we’re a character in, yes, but they may not be directly us. We may not be the central casted character, right?

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
And I think that lots of people feel more comfortable with that and may use that in talking to donors or others. Telling a story about a child that was served at the CAC or other kinds of things.

Sally Zimney:
Yeah. Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
But people also talk about leadership stories. And I think this may be where people feel more discomfort because it’s like: Spotlight on you.

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
You know, it’s not about some cast of characters. This is really your own leadership story.

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
Can you talk a little bit about, first of all, why is it important to have one? And how do you begin to approach it? Because I can see some people, you know, sort of going down the path of, “It’s not my job to self-aggrandize and make this all about me.” And, you know, so I think there is some of that, that people are like,

Sally Zimney:
Mmm. Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
“Why should I make myself the center of the story around my own leadership and organization?”

Sally Zimney:
Yeah. Well, you’re right in that many people, it’s the last kind of story that they’re developing for themselves. Because it is so much easier to tell other people’s stories. And I work with a lot of people who just want to be the holder of the message. They just want to kind of be the vehicle through which the message comes and not tell their own story as a part of that.

And you can do that, but here’s what it’s missing if you don’t. It doesn’t feel like they should care. Your audience will care more about your message if they understand your own journey with it. Otherwise, it just feels like an intellectual exercise. Or, it sort of checks the boxes, but you’re missing out on all of the really curiosity-driving elements of storytelling. And ultimately, an audience wants to know, do you get where I am? Do you get me? So when you tell your own story, it opens up that potential, that avenue of resonance. Yes, me too. I have been there too. I get it.

So that’s the why, is like without it, you’re kind of missing out on one of the most powerful elements of connection with your audience and getting them to care about your idea.

How you start to do that is, it’s one of those, I call it speaking of very iterative, based on the moment that you’re in and what the audience really needs right then, there’s probably a particular message that might be most helpful for them. And to know what that message is, you have to do a little digging into your own life. So we can’t really speak without doing some internal reflecting for yourself. Like, how does my life experience connect with this audience’s life experience?

Sometimes it’s helpful to think about it as just a giant Venn diagram. I love Venn diagrams. You’ve got like your life experience and your audience’s life experience. Like where, where do those two circles overlap? Wherever that little slice is, is likely the story that needs to be told right in this moment right here. But it might change with a different audience.

[29:52] Teresa Huizar:
I was going to say one of the things that I really appreciated about the book is the importance of attuning yourself to what the audience is needing from you.

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
So not just like in generally in the world, this is what they need—

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
but here is what they need from this time in which you’re on a stage or talking to them or however that the storytelling is occurring. Thinking about how you get at that question about what they need from you versus what you would like them to know, can you talk about sort of how you think of it?

Sally Zimney:
Yeah!

Teresa Huizar:
That’s like, these are two different paths.

Sally Zimney:
Yeah, they are. And most people think about content from a: What is the information that this audience needs? And so I’m going to just think about making sure that I’m formatting and pulling together the essential critical information that will help them, and serve the audience while they’re there.

That’s great. That’s important. I think there are some more interesting questions to ask yourself before you start pulling together your content. Like, how do I want my audience to feel at the end of this moment that I’m having with them? How do I want them to feel? Because that filter can really change the kind of information or stories that you include.

How do I want them to feel? What do I want them to do at the end of this? And then it’s: What do I want them to know? Like, the knowing, we usually get that piece really easily. But, if I ask how I want them to feel, and the answer is, “I want them to feel really, like, fired up. And I want them to feel like determined”—“Yes! We have got to do something about this”—well, that’s going to change very much the stories that you tell and even the information that you include as well. Right? Versus “I want them to feel assured. I want them to know. Yes, we’ve got you. You are in good hands. You can trust us.” But that’s a very different feeling, and it’s going to shape very much what you choose to share in that moment.

And so, the truth is, that’s all you thinking about this moment. “Here’s what I want for them.” None of that is complete until you think about, what do they want from this? What do they need in this moment? Where are they currently at right now? What do they currently believe about what’s happening? Where’s the misinformation?

One of my favorite questions to ask is: What is the cynic in the room thinking?

Teresa Huizar:
Ahh!

Sally Zimney:
What does that person in the back of the room who’s like, “Yeah, but, mmm, I’m not buying it. I don’t know. Mm-mm. You haven’t convinced me yet.” Knowing what the cynic in the back of the room is thinking can be a really powerful filter to use.

So we just want to ask ourselves more interesting questions than just: What is the information that I need to provide? But we’ve got to kind of dig in and do a little psychological deep dive for both of us, speaker and audience. Where are we really at? What really needs to happen in this moment?

[33:06] Teresa Huizar:
I was just remembering as you were talking, several years ago when you helped us craft our annual meeting and when you asked us,

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
“How do you want people to feel?”, I think that was the first time anybody had ever asked that and— including us of each other—

Sally Zimney:
Yeah. Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
and it was this lightbulb moment. Because it’s like, [Laughter] “Oh, yeah, this isn’t just about imparting a series of facts.”

Sally Zimney:
Yeah!

Teresa Huizar:
Like, “Oh, yes! How do we want people to feel sitting there?”

Sally Zimney:
Yeah!

Teresa Huizar:
It’s really powerful, and it has stuck. It’s an interesting thing.

Sally Zimney:
Oh, good!

Teresa Huizar:
All these years later, when we’re planning annual meeting, we still ask ourselves that question, the group that’s a part of the planning,

Sally Zimney:
Yeah!

Teresa Huizar:
thinking about, “Okay, how do we want people to feel—

Sally Zimney:
Oh!

Teresa Huizar:
coming out of that meeting and during the meeting?” So just know that—

Sally Zimney:
Love that!

Teresa Huizar:
these ideas are very, very sticky and they have a way of really shaping the information you share. Because at NCA, it’s just like with any individual CAC [Children’s Advocacy Center], you have so much going on. Honestly, we could cover, in that one hour, an entire range of things, right? There’s, there’s more things than we could cover than we have time for.

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
So we’re having to craft, in the time that we have, you know, we’re having to make selections—

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
and it’s a good, I think, at least for us, it’s a good way of sort of paring back all the brilliant ideas people always have about all the things we could possibly cover. Because it’s like, well, what all aligns with that feeling that we’re wanting people to have?

Sally Zimney:
Yeah. Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
It’s interesting.

Sally Zimney:
Well, we all need filters to our content because there’s always more to share. I mean, this is my problem. My biggest challenge with my content is there’s so much I want to share. And I’m excited about it. So I just—And sometimes we think the more we share, the more helpful we’re being.

Teresa Huizar:
[Laughter] Yeah.

Sally Zimney:
It’s like, oh, nope, nope, that’s actually not true. So, you have to choose your filters. Though I think the ones we’ve talked about are some really good ones to help you decide what belongs in this moment versus a different moment. And not that the other information isn’t important, but maybe it doesn’t meet the needs of the moment right here. Yeah.

[35:13] Teresa Huizar:
So because, you know, we remind ourselves that we have more than one way to get information out. It doesn’t just have to be an annual meeting.

Sally Zimney:
Yeah! Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
So we can take a moment to do this thing, and then we can use other tools that we have to do, you know, other things.

Sally Zimney:
Mm-hmm.

Teresa Huizar:
You kind of started down a path talking a little bit about other aspects of good storytelling, including editing. And I would just say that, you know, I am as guilty, I am sure, of this as anybody else. But it is true that when a story keeps going on and kind of loses the essential thread, there’s a point at which the human brain, I think, just begins to wander a little bit.

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
Talk about the role of editing in storytelling, if you would.

Sally Zimney:
Oh, I think it’s the most, one of the most underutilized aspects of good storytelling is how you edit yourself in the moment—and sometimes beforehand—but really taking, taking stock of the moment that you have.

Here’s the thing, the answer I use all the time with a speaking question is, “It depends.” And—which is really hard, but it depends on how much time you have and where the audience is and what’s happening in the room and etc., etc. So, paying attention for yourself on what’s working, what isn’t and adjusting in the moment is a really critical thing. So editing is really, really important. And it’s an in the moment skill that we have to learn so that we can be responsive to what’s happening.

For instance, if, if it’s a 10-minute talk, you’ve got 10 minutes to talk about this thing. Your story really shouldn’t be seven of those 10 minutes, right? You have to adapt your content to the moment. And sometimes you have to change it [laughter] in the moment based on a question you get or what’s happening. Or let’s say you planned, you were told you had 10 minutes, but then a few minutes before you go on, they say, “You’ve got to keep it a little shorter because we’re running behind.” Like, okay, what’s going to stay and what’s going to go?

So it’s hard to prescribe exactly how to edit well. Other than you, if you can see yourself as an editor, like, you don’t have to stick with the thing that you planned. Because in the moment you’re getting information and feedback about what’s working and what isn’t. And so how to pay attention to those things and trust yourself, allow yourself to make those changes in the moment. It’s okay to do that.

[37:49] Teresa Huizar:
I think also, you know, you’ll know, in part by how people are reacting just by the look on their face and their body language to some extent—

Sally Zimney:
Yeah. Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
about the story and what you’re conveying. You know, I remember being told, I don’t know if it was in high school or whatever, like, “If you’re nervous, just look above or over to the side or—” it was like the worst advice in the world because you can’t possibly know [laughter]—

Sally Zimney:
That’s terrible advice!

Teresa Huizar:
whether your audience likes one thing you’re saying or it’s resonating with them or not. If you’re like, looking above their shoulder or I mean, whatever this was—

Sally Zimney:
Yes. Yes!

Teresa Huizar:
like, if you got told that, my advice is to ignore that entirely.

[Laughter]

Sally Zimney:
Thumbs down on that advice, Teresa! You’re right.

But you’re not the only one who’s gotten that advice over the years. Many, many people have. It’s, I mean, they think they’re helping when they say that, like, so that you don’t freak out and tell yourself really unhelpful stories about what’s happening by what’s in the room. Like, you’ll be less nervous if you stay above. But that’s exactly how it feels. Like if you’re in the audience and it feels like they’re just always looking behind you, you’re like, what’s ha—what’s behind—

Teresa Huizar:
What’s back there?

Sally Zimney:
what’s more important here? Oh my gosh. No, no, no.

Yeah. And, it’s, I like to find a few really engaged people in the audience.

Teresa Huizar:
Mm-hmm.

Sally Zimney:
And you just keep checking in with them. You’re not ignoring everybody else, but they kind of become your test case in some ways. And they’re encouraging you along the way. There are always the nodders. You’re always going to find the people who are just like, “Yeah!” They are so into it and with you. Let them fuel you. You know, let them be the people you come back to again and again. We all need that in the moment. You know, they become just such an essential part of you moving through this with confidence in the moment. For sure.

[39:39] Teresa Huizar:
For people for whom storytelling might not come naturally or they don’t have much experience with it, how do you—you know, once they’ve sort of identified their story they’ve identified what would be best for this audience all those things—how should they go about preparing and what should they be thinking about in terms of their preparation?

Sally Zimney:
Yeah, I mean, doing one of those really basic analyses that we just talked about of: Who am I? Who are they? What does this moment in particular call for? I see you’ve got that basic concept. When I, when I think about the story, really importantly, it’s not just the story. It’s what do I want to do with this story? So writing or creating or telling a story that is interesting and, you know, checks all the boxes of a persuasive, interesting story is great. But as leaders, that is not our only job.

Your job is honestly not to be the most entertaining storyteller. Your job is to leverage the power of story in order to do something. You know, really thinking strategically, where is this going? What do I want to do with this story? And how can this story serve my people? So I like to, you know, when we talk about storytelling, make sure people are thinking and acknowledging that building the story is just step one. Step two is what happens after the story. So why should they care? What does this have to do with them? So what? Really speaking and thinking from their perspective. Which I think is helpful. A, it gets them bought into the idea. But I also hope that it helps for those people who are like, “Who cares about my story?” It’s, you’re not telling your story for you. It’s not really about you. Your story is really meant to serve as a engagement tool to get people to care about something that has everything to do with them. And it’s really your job to articulate what that piece is.

So story is step one. “Why should they care?” is really the essential step two.

[42:01] Teresa Huizar:
As you were saying that, and even in your book, when you were saying “so what?”, it took me back to this psychology professor of mine who would say that. “Do you think you’d have this brand new revelation about anything in this reaction?”

[Laughter]

Sally Zimney:
Well, thank you, uh … [Laughter]

Teresa Huizar:
“Think about why this revelation is important!” It’s not.

[Cross-talk]

Sally Zimney:
[Laughter] Yeah. Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
And I was just like, “Yeah, that always stuck with me.” Tt’s so funny. But it’s a valid point.

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
You’re not telling a story to entertain as a leader.

Sally Zimney:
Mm-hmm.

Teresa Huizar:
What you’re doing is advancing, really, what’s beneficial to your audience through using the story as a way to move people, hopefully, right?

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
In that direction. Yeah. It’s interesting.

Sally Zimney:
Yeah. And if it is entertaining, awesome. Great. Wonderful. That’s just not the point.

[Laughter]

You know, it’s like, if you’re entertaining, it’s likely they’re going to stick with you there for the second part of your story, where the “why should they care?” part. But you don’t have to be entertaining in order to make this meaningful exchange. In fact, I think it’s more important if you can tell a story that sort of minimally serves the storytelling needs but you can articulate really clearly why they should care? That part is more important.

[43:16] Teresa Huizar:
It’s such an important, I think, insight for people to think about if they’re feeling a little scared about this whole storytelling business.

Sally Zimney:
Mm-hmm.

Teresa Huizar:
It’s like, let’s not make it bigger than it is, right?

Sally Zimney:
Yeah.

Teresa Huizar:
It’s a tool. It’s serving a purpose.

Sally Zimney:
It’s a tool and, to your point, Teresa, anybody can do this. You do not have to be a performer. You do not have to be entertaining or funny or dramatic or blah, blah, blah. Your life doesn’t have to be any of these things. Really what we’re trying to do is, is hone in on a moment that can serve other people. And your wisdom is that bridge between that moment and other people caring, like your perspective, the way you articulate that moment. That’s the important part. So if you’re going to work on anything as a leader, like, yes, tell the story. But the “why they should care” part, that’s—that’s the piece that you actually get paid for as a “leader.”

And I’m going to use that in quotations, right? Like, that’s why you are leading, is your ability to articulate that little throughline and pull it out for people and say, “I’m just going to serve this idea up for you.” Because other people might see that moment and not pull that little piece of wisdom out. But if you can do that, if you can pull that little piece out and say, “This is the idea. This is what I see for us and for you and for us moving forward.” Like, that’s the part that can change perspective and people moving forward.

[44:46] Teresa Huizar:
I think what I liked about what you’ve just said, but also about the book, you talk about this, that it’s also not about being overly polished about it. Because when I think about stories that have been impactful to me even recently—and not ones that I’ve told, ones I’ve been a listener to—it’s not that they were so TEDTalk perfection. Honestly. It’s that somebody was talking about a real thing that was important.

Sally Zimney:
Mm-hmm.

Teresa Huizar:
I mean, I don’t know how else to say it.

Sally Zimney:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah!

Teresa Huizar:
It just was important in the world. And so even though they were not a professional public speaker, even though they were not particularly polished, maybe they had grammatical mistakes or whatever—all of that was irrelevant to the value of the story. So talk a little bit about that for people who are nervous or like, “Oh my god, I’m going to like, ‘um,’ ‘uh.’ I’m going to misstep, I’m going to say a word I don’t mean to say.” You know, “I’m going to just get nervous.”

Sally Zimney:
Mmm.

Teresa Huizar:
Do they need to calm down? [Laughter]

Sally Zimney:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, basically! I mean, the phrase that I like to say is, “Perfection actually kills connection.”

Teresa Huizar:
Mmm. Mmm.

Sally Zimney:
And connection is truly the point. If we shift our focus as leaders from “I have to do this perfectly in order to be seen as credible, in order for people to follow, in order for people to listen or care.” Well, our focus, we get uber-focused on the wrong things and it ends up getting in the way of us having an impact. Versus your focus shifting towards connection. And if connection is your point, then that allows room for you to be a human.

Teresa Huizar:
Mmm. Mmm.

Sally Zimney:
A three-dimensional human. Not just in your stories, but in the way that you show up.

Right? You’re allowed to, uh, you know, stumble through and search for your words and whatever, because that’s not ultimately the point. The point is, have we created shared meaning in this moment? Do you feel seen? Do you feel understood? Are you going, “Oh, I’ve never thought about it that way”? Are we creating moments of insight and ah-ha’s and potentially new ways of thinking and being and doing? Well, then, fantastic. Who cares about the rest of it?

Teresa Huizar:
Mmm.

Sally Zimney:
And I’ve just experienced more times than I can count where somebody has a perfect script. And they were focused on spelling their script perfectly. And they were technically perfect. And nobody cares.

Teresa Huizar:
Mmm.

Sally Zimney:
Because there was nothing real in it. It didn’t feel of the moment. It didn’t feel really connected to what was happening. It wasn’t actually responsive to what was happening. It was like, that person is all up in their own head and worried about how they are sounding, looking, being, moving. And nobody else is thinking about that. All they’re noticing is it feels like they’re over there doing their own thing versus breaking down this like metaphorical—actual, sometimes—like distance between speaker and audience.

Like, how do we bust through that and feel like we are in this together? So if you can shift your focus on connection, it really allows you and anybody to do this.

[48:20] Teresa Huizar:
Which is so hopeful. [Laughter] You know, it really is. Truly. It really is.

Sally Zimney:
[Laughter] That makes me happy. Yes!

Teresa Huizar:
You know what I’m saying? Because as human beings, we’re made for connection, right?

Sally Zimney:
Yes!

Teresa Huizar:
We’re connection-prone. So it’s like it is within all of us, I think—

Sally Zimney:
[Contented sigh]

Teresa Huizar:
to do this, Sally. And I found your book, you know, as many—as many talks as I have given, I found it really, really helpful. And I know that others will too.

Sally Zimney:
Aww. I’m so glad.

[48:47] Teresa Huizar:
Is there anything that I should have asked you and didn’t or anything else that you wanted to make sure that we talked about today?

Sally Zimney:
You know, I’m so glad we ended with what we did, Teresa. What you just said is really, really important to me. That this art form of speaking and storytelling, it has been put on a pedestal for a really long time. It’s like, “Oh, you’ve got to be—” we have a lot of myths and beliefs around who belongs in that moment. But speaking is too powerful to me. It’s too potentially world changing. It’s too—I’ve seen people who in some ways just, like, for whatever reason, they don’t belong on stage. And I’ve seen these moments where you’re just like, “Oh, I never thought of it that way.” Or “I feel that so deeply.” Or “Oh, my gosh, no, I’m engaged in this idea that I wasn’t before.”

And so it’s so important to me. Like my whole, I feel like my reason for being is—they call me a professional nudger.

Teresa Huizar:
[Laughter]

Sally Zimney:
And this is why I’m just like, “Yes. Anybody! Yes, you can do it. Yes, you have a message in you.” Absolutely. Because nobody is excluded from this. And whatever baloney stories you might be telling yourself about whether or not you can, if you just eject those ideas, what is possible for you?

Nudge, nudge, nudge.

[Laughter]

[50:19] Teresa Huizar:
That’s a great way to end this conversation, with that nudge. And I just appreciate your passion and belief for the power of storytelling so much.

Sally Zimney:
Thank you.

Teresa Huizar:
I could have talked to you for another hour, but you’ve been so generous with your time. But do come back anytime.

Sally Zimney:
Thank you.

Teresa Huizar:
We just have appreciated working with you at NCA and also just all you’ve done to advance storytelling in our field. So thank you.

[Outro music begins]

Sally Zimney:
Thank you, Teresa. I adore all of you. I’m so grateful that you asked me not only to be at your event, your Leadership Conference, but also to be here with you today. And anytime. You just call me up, I’m here. This would be really, it’d be really—this was fun and it would be fun again. All about it.

[Outro]

[51:01] Teresa Huizar:
Thank you for listening to One in Ten. If you like this episode, please share it with a friend. And for more information about this episode or any of our other ones, please visit our podcast website at OneInTenPodcast.org.

[Music fades out]